BST Balance Discussions

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BST Balance discussions
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 Asura.Isiolia
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By Asura.Isiolia 2016-04-03 15:55:25
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Asura.Foreverj said: »
Well scholars and black mages aren't in any danger either so why aren't they nerfed? Again I don't want any more nerfs just asking a question in regards to your logic.

I'd say largely because SCHs and BLMs (and RNGs, and whoever else) are able to do damage outside of most AoEs due to teamwork. It takes a tank staying above them on the hate list and holding the mob in place to allow for it. Without that, with few exceptions, the mob will come for them or draw them in.

SE has actively ensured that they need that cooperation to function. Magic and Ranged damage...the two DD types that are completely negated by double weakness. Both are given CC tools - Bind/Shadowbind, Sleep/Sleep arrows, Break, etc. Any of which are immediately removed by any damage. Weight half counts, but still means the mob is chasing them.
If I recall, max distance for ranged was reduced to be inside casting distance (was a time you could pelt worms all day and they could do jack to retaliate), and ranged will often do more damage inside AoE radius with the current system.

Comparing old BST with ranged DDs is kind of a false equivalency. It was both putting up solid (or better) damage and tanking with massive HP (and, potentially, damage reduction), while keeping the master out of harm's way and low on the hate list. That's a bit different from simply being able to damage from a distance.
 Quetzalcoatl.Excalin
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By Quetzalcoatl.Excalin 2016-04-03 15:56:10
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The biggest issue I have with BST (outside of Lag and Bugs) is that it suffers from Double Jeopardy. Namely Amnesia is the worst.
 Leviathan.Stamos
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By Leviathan.Stamos 2016-04-03 15:58:33
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What has one-shotted you? I assume needle type moves like Yakshi?

And, from the BSTs I have seen post-nerf, they mostly run out and run back in to use ready moves. Mostly getting an idea of where it will work. The inconvenience I have seen is more with multiple enemies attacking your pet and then being out of range. Or the monster is big and you're engaged.
 Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia
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By Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia 2016-04-03 15:58:59
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Leviathan.Stamos said: »
Getting 1000 tp on your Pet on anything meaningful would take a while. Reducing BSTs dmg by a lot. With how it is now, you need 1800~ acc on NMs in Reisen. Sure, your tp moves would hit, but how long would it take to consistently get TP?

Around 8 seconds with the Boar pet, everything else takes a good bit longer. Probably 15ish seconds or so with Spur.
 Asura.Foreverj
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By Asura.Foreverj 2016-04-03 16:01:31
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The only reason bst got nerfed is because too many people complained about it in the official forum. But to me it's a good thing. I discovered blue Mage and scholar. Blue Mage is my main now.

And having play the two besides the unleash run wild tegmina spam, blue is way more powerful. Less then 10 secs CDC spam of 7k to 25k damage combine with skillchain while bst razor fang does 5k to 22k on a 10 sec timer without Skillchain.

And playing scholar from memory I was doing 10k to 25k magic burst to ironside when I first brought out scholar. And now I'm >1200 Jp scholar.

the thing is my bst is now retired due to other jobs is just superior. However, no disrespect to the legends falkirk and a few other great bsts, it's a powerful Job in the hands of a great player.
 Leviathan.Stamos
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By Leviathan.Stamos 2016-04-03 16:01:47
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But, I assume that is with support Tru yeah? Cor rolls/Geo/s
 Shiva.Siviard
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By Shiva.Siviard 2016-04-03 16:05:27
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We were doing Old Shuck last night and several BSTs, including myself, got caught by Acheron Flame.

We haven't fought Yakshi yet, but if the Needle move is anything like 10k Needles from the Cactuar NM, with so many pets in range the damage gets divided up so much that they all survive it.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2016-04-03 16:05:33
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Rooks said: »
First off, I've changed your thread title. The previous one was either wholly insensitive to an ongoing discussion of police brutality, or your perspective is impossibly skewed. Either way, it's now more reflective of the actual discussion.

You're a good dude, Rooks.

Anyway, yeah, BST really needed a nerf. I geared mine up in a week back in June and it was night and day from jobs I've sunk months if not years into.

It's still really strong, just not totally brainless. Still easier to play in practice than most other jobs.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-04-03 16:11:32
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Asura.Foreverj said: »
The only reason bst got nerfed is because too many people complained about it in the official forum.

BST got nerfed because it was the default hammer used on anything and everything. SE developers actually do pay attention to whats happening in the game and when one single setup is used on everything, that's when they start looking into why and how.

Gotta fight hard T3 - use BST
Gotta fight semi-hard T2 - use BST
Gotta fight mission battle - use BST
Gotta fight T1's - use BST
Getting some CP - use BST
Farming silt - use BST
Going to fight Bubbly Bernie - use BST
Gotta go to toilet - make sure you have BST

Anytime any other strategy or setup was brought up for anything, the immediate response was "why do that, BST is so much easier". And that's like a huge *** bat signal for SE developers to swoop in. You can be guaranteed they are looking at SCH BLM GEO SC / MB mechanics right now and trying to think what changes to the battle system will enable other solutions to be used. There is already a limiter in place with the resist wall, but due to stuff having such ridiculously high stats, MBing is the only strategy that actually works.

The BLU hate is a red herring and distraction, it's not the strongest DD just the one that requires the laziest support.

Shiva.Siviard said: »
We were doing Old Shuck last night and several BSTs players, including myself, got caught by Acheron Flame.

Damn gotta suck to be just a demi-God and no longer immortal. Means you gotta deal with the same *** everyone else does. Now you are going to complain that you have to actually eat food to play your job. OMG what is the world coming to when players have to use food...
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-04-03 16:16:21
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ScaevolaBahamut said: »
Rooks said: »
First off, I've changed your thread title. The previous one was either wholly insensitive to an ongoing discussion of police brutality, or your perspective is impossibly skewed. Either way, it's now more reflective of the actual discussion.

You're a good dude, Rooks.

Anyway, yeah, BST really needed a nerf. I geared mine up in a week back in June and it was night and day from jobs I've sunk months if not years into.

It's still really strong, just not totally brainless. Still easier to play in practice than most other jobs.

It's a SMN with 10 second BP timers and 0MP blood pacts. Seriously just give SMN a 10s recast on it's BP and make all it's BP's cost 0 MP and you have BST.

A more balanced update would have BST ready ability cost HP based on the level of the pet. A good 200~300HP per use would be enough.
 Shiva.Siviard
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By Shiva.Siviard 2016-04-03 16:18:35
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Thank you Saevel for your irrelevant comment.

I can see your Trump level vitriol spewing out in one post about BST. Do you truly hate the BST job that much? Serious question.
[+]
 Asura.Foreverj
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By Asura.Foreverj 2016-04-03 16:18:43
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ScaevolaBahamut said: »
Rooks said: »
First off, I've changed your thread title. The previous one was either wholly insensitive to an ongoing discussion of police brutality, or your perspective is impossibly skewed. Either way, it's now more reflective of the actual discussion.

You're a good dude, Rooks.

Anyway, yeah, BST really needed a nerf. I geared mine up in a week back in June and it was night and day from jobs I've sunk months if not years into.

It's still really strong, just not totally brainless. Still easier to play in practice than most other jobs.

Have you tried blue Mage?
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2016-04-03 16:21:53
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Yes.

It's a melee.
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 Leviathan.Stamos
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By Leviathan.Stamos 2016-04-03 16:22:50
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Having fought Old Shuck quite a few times. Even with one fight really dragging on/leveling up. Did you not have shell? Barfira?
 Asura.Foreverj
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By Asura.Foreverj 2016-04-03 16:23:11
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Shiva.Siviard said: »
Thank you Saevel for your irrelevant comment.

I can see your Trump level vitriol spewing out in one post about BST. Do you truly hate the BST job that much? Serious question.

He hates bst a lot and loves blue Mage. At least I love blue Mage just as much as he does. I'm not sure what other dd can be stronger then blue Mage as he just said. Dancer? That's a good job and I played dancer too. It's great for spike damage. It's a little more harder to master but need to ask someone who PlAyed both dancer or blue Mage to get an opinion of which can be stronger.
 Asura.Foreverj
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By Asura.Foreverj 2016-04-03 16:24:31
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ScaevolaBahamut said: »
Yes.

It's a melee.

And bst is better then blue mAge? I assume you will answer yes so all I can say is ok.
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By Asura.Floppyseconds 2016-04-03 16:26:22
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Gotta go to toilet - make sure you have BST
[+]
 Shiva.Siviard
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By Shiva.Siviard 2016-04-03 16:26:46
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Asura.Foreverj said: »
SE developers actually do pay attention to whats happening in the game and when one single setup is used on everything, that's when they start looking into why and how.

So with that logic, BLM SCH GEO and BLU are on the nerf chopping block next.

Shiva.Siviard said: »
We were doing Old Shuck last night and several BSTs players, including myself, got caught by Acheron Flame.

Damn gotta suck to be just a demi-God and no longer immortal. Means you gotta deal with the same *** everyone else does. Now you are going to complain that you have to actually eat food to play your job. OMG what is the world coming to when players have to use food...

Not once did I or any other BST tell you or anyone else that we are "immortals" and can't be touched. Who the hell are you to say that to me or BST in general? You just proved your bias against BST in one single post. Why are you even posting in this thread in the first place? Oh, to troll. GTFO here.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2016-04-03 16:28:22
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ScaevolaBahamut said: »
Yes.

It's a melee.
Asura.Foreverj said: »
Shiva.Siviard said: »
Thank you Saevel for your irrelevant comment.

I can see your Trump level vitriol spewing out in one post about BST. Do you truly hate the BST job that much? Serious question.

He hates bst a lot and loves blue Mage. At least I love blue Mage just as much as he does. I'm not sure what other dd can be stronger then blue Mage as he just said. Dancer? That's a good job and I played dancer too. It's great for spike damage. It's a little more harder to master but need to ask someone who PlAyed both dancer or blue Mage to get an opinion of which can be stronger.


I play both; I'm about 700ish JP into BLU and just finished DNC mythic.

BLU is stronger. DNC's spike damage is through the roof, but BLU needs less to go right, has more ways to defend itself, can provide the odd utility (Blank Gaze alone is worth it now that BRD has fallen off the face of the Earth), and is all-around more independent and reliable.

HOWEVER, the question of whether BLU is overpowered and could stand to be nerfed (it is and probably does) has nothing to do with whether BST was overpowered and needed a nerf (it was and did).
 Asura.Foreverj
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By Asura.Foreverj 2016-04-03 16:32:10
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ScaevolaBahamut said: »
ScaevolaBahamut said: »
Yes.

It's a melee.
Asura.Foreverj said: »
Shiva.Siviard said: »
Thank you Saevel for your irrelevant comment.

I can see your Trump level vitriol spewing out in one post about BST. Do you truly hate the BST job that much? Serious question.

He hates bst a lot and loves blue Mage. At least I love blue Mage just as much as he does. I'm not sure what other dd can be stronger then blue Mage as he just said. Dancer? That's a good job and I played dancer too. It's great for spike damage. It's a little more harder to master but need to ask someone who PlAyed both dancer or blue Mage to get an opinion of which can be stronger.


I play both; I'm about 700ish JP into BLU and just finished DNC mythic.

BLU is stronger. DNC's spike damage is through the roof, but BLU needs less to go right, has more ways to defend itself, can provide the odd utility (Blank Gaze alone is worth it now that BRD has fallen off the face of the Earth), and is all-around more independent and reliable.

HOWEVER, the question of whether BLU is overpowered and could stand to be nerfed (it is and probably does) has nothing to do with whether BST was overpowered and needed a nerf (it was and did).

So u mean both blue and bst needs a nerf but only bst got a nerf? Yea that's life. Oh wells
 Shiva.Siviard
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By Shiva.Siviard 2016-04-03 16:33:39
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Scaevola, the issue isn't whether BST needed a nerf or not. It was OP, even I admit that.

The issue was that SE went at it the wrong way in a lot of our opinions. And whenever someone tries to propose a possible alternative, or to notify them that there is something wrong with Job Abilities not going off even though they are within the proper distance and show visual proof, they are unjustly banned from the Official Forums.
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By Sylph.Oraen 2016-04-03 16:40:52
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Alright, so what was the right way to have nerfed BST?
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2016-04-03 16:40:58
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Shiva.Siviard said: »
The issue was that SE went at it the wrong way in a lot of our opinions.

You can have competitive damage or superior survivability. They would either nerf your survivability or nerf your damage.

Are you saying you'd prefer a damage nerf? We could argue about it but a damage nerf would really just be bringing us back to square one where BSTs are basically solely a minor annoyance for other players.

Quote:
And whenever someone tries to propose a possible alternative, or to notify them that there is something wrong with Job Abilities not going off even though they are within the proper distance and show visual proof, they are unjustly banned from the Official Forums.

I don't think anybody's saying the range bug shouldn't be fixed. If there are, those people are wrong!
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2016-04-03 16:44:47
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Asura.Saevel said: »
A more balanced update would have BST ready ability cost HP based on the level of the pet. A good 200~300HP per use would be enough.

The hilarious thing about BSTghazi is that this is probably the best actual fix I've seen proposed.

You could still play it the same as you did before if you were willing to ***Mulsums.
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By Shiva.Siviard 2016-04-03 16:54:02
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Yes, a damage nerf would have been more preferable than what we got.

Also, earlier in the thread I said the fact pets didn't need 1k TP to use ready moves was the reason why BST became so OP.

A damage reduction + making it so pets need 1k TP for Ready use, IMO would have been the proper course of action.
 Asura.Foreverj
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By Asura.Foreverj 2016-04-03 16:55:32
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Sylph.Oraen said: »
Alright, so what was the right way to have nerfed BST?

Let's just not nerf anything anymore. Hope the geo adjustment is not a nerf.
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By Sylph.Oraen 2016-04-03 16:58:31
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The GEO adjustment is a nerf. IIRC, 8 less MAB from Acumen. Nothing huge, but still a nerf.
 Asura.Foreverj
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By Asura.Foreverj 2016-04-03 16:59:00
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Shiva.Siviard said: »
Yes, a damage nerf would have been more preferable than what we got.

Also, earlier in the thread I said the fact pets didn't need 1k TP to use ready moves was the reason why BST became so OP.

A damage reduction + making it so pets need 1k TP for Ready use, IMO would have been the proper course of action.

Yea making it so bst pets can use ready moves when they have 1000 tp would hAve been fair. At least we need to alternate between pet haste sets with pet pdt sets. Longer but safe fights versus shorter but more dangerous fights with other jobs.
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By Asura.Foreverj 2016-04-03 16:59:40
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Sylph.Oraen said: »
The GEO adjustment is a nerf. IIRC, 8 less MAB from Acumen. Nothing huge, but still a nerf.

Wait really? Where u get that info? And just acumen?
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By Sylph.Oraen 2016-04-03 17:04:02
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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/50035-Change-to-Indi-geo-Fend-acumen-maybe?p=573396#post573396

Forgot that Fend was also included in the nerf.
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