How Bad Are We Gimping Our Party?

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How bad are we gimping our party?
 Quetzalcoatl.Valli
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-01-25 14:55:54
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Odin.Llewelyn said: »
What's dumb about increasing kill speed? Talking Delve, Rana > Fudo > Rudra's is very powerful, even "3-shotting" many of the NMs in there.

That's all well and good, and true. However this guy isn't talking about ***like that.

He's talking about pick up group, where he by himself is wanting to know if changing from MNK to WAR or any other job BY ITSELF is gimping his party.

The answer is NO. We're not talking 5 bards 2 cors and 8 geos with one sam skillchaining. We're not talking perfectly tanked mobs and intelligent players that stand the *** still for TA/SA.

We're talking general populous. With all it's morons who do stupid things.

Comparing a pick up half assed buffed WAR to any other job is essentially negligable. That's the point of this particular thread. Stop making it what it isn't.

A WAR vs anything else played PERFECTLY by a robot, with exact timings according to spreadsheets is terrible, we know this. This is not a real scenario.

THF spreadsheet says I should pull 1500 DPS with perfect set up, hate to break it to you in reality sometimes I don't even get half that.
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2015-01-25 14:58:38
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Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
100 DPS lower is clearly worse, but its not enough rule out using a war at all. War is perfectly acceptable to use. (it could OBVIOUSLY be better.)

I can basically guarantee w/ 119 Bravura I can outparse bandwagon THFs.

First, I wholeheartedly agree with Valli that any of the DD jobs are capable of filling the slot fine. I'm fine with a player who likes a certain job and plays it well, and frankly I trust a good WAR more than an average pickup THF SAM whatever. Hell, my LS currently uses setups with stuff like DRG DNC as our top 2 DDs. We win stuff just fine.

Second, don't play DDs just because one is the flavor of the moment, things change. Everyone loves THF (and to a lesser extent DNC) now, we're just coming out of the SAM onry phase, RNG has shined in the recent past, and MNK was DD king not that long ago. If you like WAR, keep it ready and your time will come. I'd be very surprised if a DRK WAR buff isn't coming. If it's your time to shine, enjoy it. But if not, keep prepared/geared, make sure you're doing the best you can with the job, and sit back and enjoy it once that update day comes...

I am all for "optimal" play within a job. Be the best WAR you can be, etc. But except for situational advantages/disadvantages (e.g. piercing weakness), DDs are rather interchangeable.
 Odin.Llewelyn
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By Odin.Llewelyn 2015-01-25 15:12:53
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Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
That's all well and good, and true. However this guy isn't talking about ***like that.
Wasn't talking to you or OP. Was responding to this:
Chyula said: »
only if a *** dummy to skillchain off.
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By charlo999 2015-01-25 15:31:59
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Parses take into account downtime between mobs now?
Especially over 40 mins.
No wonder it's no where near. Dunno what's so baffling about that.
Spread sheets run under the condition of infinite fighting on something with infinite HP.
What you can bet though is there would still be a big difference between war and thf even with downtime.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2015-01-25 18:25:54
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TL;DR - @OP - You're never gimping your party if you know how to play your job correctly. You likely could come PUP to an event, and as long as you use macro gearsets, know the value of skillchaining, understand what PDT actually means, and can piece together some decent builds, you're fine.

Like Valli said, at this point in the game, there isn't anything wrong with other DDs. Its just the stigma that anything besides THF & SAM is lolgimp. People need to give it a rest for a change.

Its funny how the pendulum swings in this game so often. it kind of reminds me of Street fighter. One minute, everyone is playing Ryu, then Cammy, then Akuma... all because of tier lists and ***. Buncha ***-riding clowns all hype when their job gets some shine, feeling inclined to take shots at other jobs. Give it 2 months. You're prized posession of a job will be outperformed by the next. It's just a matter of time.
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 Cerberus.Senkyuutai
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2015-01-25 18:31:38
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
TL;DR - @OP - You're never gimping your party if you know how to play your job correctly. You likely could come PUP to an event, and as long as you use macro gearsets, know the value of skillchaining, understand what PDT actually means, and can piece together some decent builds, you're fine.

Like Valli said, at this point in the game, there isn't anything wrong with other DDs. Its just the stigma that anything besides THF & SAM is lolgimp. People need to give it a rest for a change.

Its funny how the pendulum swings in this game so often. it kind of reminds me of Street fighter. One minute, everyone is playing Ryu, then Cammy, then Akuma... all because of tier lists and ***. Buncha ***-riding clowns all hype when their job gets some shine, feeling inclined to take shots at other jobs. Give it 2 months. You're prized posession of a job will be outperformed by the next. It's just a matter of time.
Cammy is the only exception, it could be compared to SAM. It was good in every version.

You can hardly say that people have been bandwagoning past vanilla.

FFXI and SFIV (or any fighting game for that matter) can't really be compared. Each version of SF gave advantage to a specific way of playing. Vanilla was damage, Super was turtle (sup Mike Ross), every other version was damage based. And even then, post 2011, there hasn't been a single year where top 8 isn't full of mid tier characters, or niche as *** characters.

Until the day where people come as WHM/SMN and outparse anyone because skill and brain quality is actually a factor, you can't compare either.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2015-01-25 18:49:07
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You can very easily check eventhubs and see that Cammy was NOT TOP tier in super, particularly after tkcs was removed. She had some very tough matchups in vanilla as well.

But I digress.

You maybe read particularly too deep into the analogy. I mean, one is a fighting game, the other is an RPG. My point was, those tier lists or spreadsheets were garbage to me in any sense of reality, because those always factor in perfect circumstances (which no player realistically can always meet). You should understand what I was comparing, though (the bandwagonism and subsequent haet for others who don't follow the trend).

At some point in the game, everything comes full circle and everyone get's their due shine(there was a time where DRG was OP upon using relic lance and penta thrust). I have seen more BLUs and THFs running around these past few months than I ever have my entire ffxi career. SE will mess up and make Cloudsplitter insanely good, and skillchain off of a Raaz pet for 10,000 dmg flat out, and every tom/***/harry will flock to BST for moar epeen. Get in line. Learn to play your job this game correctly and you'll never be affected by the pendulum swing.
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 Sylph.Safiyyah
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By Sylph.Safiyyah 2015-01-25 19:02:46
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Hell, my LS currently uses setups with stuff like DRG DNC as our top 2 DDs. We win stuff just fine.

Well DRG and DNC are two of the top five-ish DDs at the moment, lol.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Taberif
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By Quetzalcoatl.Taberif 2015-01-25 19:22:04
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perfectionists are cowards

***is situational

u not gimping unless you have shitty reaction times
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 Cerberus.Senkyuutai
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2015-01-26 11:54:31
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Learn to play your job this game correctly and you'll never be affected by the pendulum swing.
That's the bottom line for sure.
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2015-01-26 16:26:44
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Sylph.Safiyyah said: »
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Hell, my LS currently uses setups with stuff like DRG DNC as our top 2 DDs. We win stuff just fine.

Well DRG and DNC are two of the top five-ish DDs at the moment, lol.

Yes, that's true. But the point is that it's not the cookie cutter mentality of "SAM or THF onry!" You don't see random shouts asking for a DRG or a DNC. I'm sure our group would also win the same content with our best DRK and best PUP filling the top DD slots.

Play what you like, play it well, and any well played/geared DD job will do fine in a DD role. I like my DNC more than my equally well geared THF, so I tend to play that even though the current status quo is "THF numbah one!". (I also beat most THFs on a parse, but I digress... :P)
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By Blazed1979 2015-01-26 16:34:42
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Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
TL;DR - @OP - You're never gimping your party if you know how to play your job correctly. You likely could come PUP to an event, and as long as you use macro gearsets, know the value of skillchaining, understand what PDT actually means, and can piece together some decent builds, you're fine.

Like Valli said, at this point in the game, there isn't anything wrong with other DDs. Its just the stigma that anything besides THF & SAM is lolgimp. People need to give it a rest for a change.

Its funny how the pendulum swings in this game so often. it kind of reminds me of Street fighter. One minute, everyone is playing Ryu, then Cammy, then Akuma... all because of tier lists and ***. Buncha ***-riding clowns all hype when their job gets some shine, feeling inclined to take shots at other jobs. Give it 2 months. You're prized posession of a job will be outperformed by the next. It's just a matter of time.
Cammy is the only exception, it could be compared to SAM. It was good in every version.

You can hardly say that people have been bandwagoning past vanilla.

FFXI and SFIV (or any fighting game for that matter) can't really be compared. Each version of SF gave advantage to a specific way of playing. Vanilla was damage, Super was turtle (sup Mike Ross), every other version was damage based. And even then, post 2011, there hasn't been a single year where top 8 isn't full of mid tier characters, or niche as *** characters.

Until the day where people come as WHM/SMN and outparse anyone because skill and brain quality is actually a factor, you can't compare either.


Soul Calibur series - Voldo. Hate that gimp pos.
 Siren.Strawhat
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By Siren.Strawhat 2015-01-26 17:14:27
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I have both Conqueror (made first) and koga, been doing all high level events, and the problem we faced (my static) even with an exceptional WHM is that i was taking too much DMG, even to kill adds in incursion, couldn't solo a mob without taking a ton of dmg, where as sam with am3 up, just does 2 ws + sc and a mob is dead.... + i was asked not to use berserk, or use berserk and defender ... /sigh...
anyway for now i'm just waiting on WAR dmg overhaul that SE promised like 6-12 months ago
P.S. i couldn't even solo AR2 as war/dnc /cry /cry
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2015-01-26 17:18:10
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Sylph.Safiyyah said: »
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Hell, my LS currently uses setups with stuff like DRG DNC as our top 2 DDs. We win stuff just fine.

Well DRG and DNC are two of the top five-ish DDs at the moment, lol.

Yes, that's true. But the point is that it's not the cookie cutter mentality of "SAM or THF onry!" You don't see random shouts asking for a DRG or a DNC. I'm sure our group would also win the same content with our best DRK and best PUP filling the top DD slots.

Play what you like, play it well, and any well played/geared DD job will do fine in a DD role. I like my DNC more than my equally well geared THF, so I tend to play that even though the current status quo is "THF numbah one!". (I also beat most THFs on a parse, but I digress... :P)

That's the point. People are only picking SAM and THF because (whisper*whisper) IT'S BRAINDEAD EASY. The same with MNK when people would demand it was necessary for some fights (you see how the status quo on MNK changed recently? job is ***).

People would rather concede to the easymode "He-can't-possibly-mess-up-a-job-that-only-requires-2-3-macros" and demand someone play SAM or THF than allow a players' creative talent (translated: a good player) to reign free and get the job done just as efficiently. I would have no issue with a player whom I am very familiar with decides to come BLU or DNC to delve, or PUP or DRK to Incursion, because it honestly wouldn't make much of a difference. In PUGs, its an entirely different story. Most players aren't about to let some complete stranger into the group playing one of the more 'complicated' jobs, which could ultimately cost us the event.

The reality is, if you're going with a good core group of friends, job selection is HARDLY ever the reason for the outcome. So you can stop asking me to brd for every event, cuz I can also GEO and COR, too!
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 Asura.Tot
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By Asura.Tot 2015-01-26 19:45:23
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if the DPS you bring to the event can kill what ever needs to be killed in the allotted time to kill the kill thing that needs killed before it kills you and you can still win with a kill and time still

"Randomsheeppeople[Port Jeuno]: (Current event i need) <Do you need it?> <Looking for members> BRD or DD </tell>

>>Randomsheeppeople : "<Any vacancies?> BLU?"

Randomsheeppeople>> "sry ned (Insert mainstream DD)"

Your loss my friend.

P.S. your DPS is only as good as your support

something to keep in mind when you're riding that Epeen in the back ally of your ego
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 Asura.Devdas
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By Asura.Devdas 2015-01-26 22:19:40
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The fact of the matter is that jobs are "flavor of the month" because, (surprise surprise), they are superior to other jobs in some way or another. Warrior is a great job and would work easily cause the game at this point depends more on support jobs then DD jobs. War had a long period of time from the start of Abyssea to about the end of Voidwatch where it was the job of choice, now Sam is king again mostly cause of how their kit is designed.

Defensive ability: check
Offensive ability: check
Ridiculous TP gain and sc ability: check

It doesn't mean Warrior is bad at all, it's just not optimal, which is fine. FFXI is designed for people to be able to play all their jobs and gear them but don't be let down if a random pickup group wants a Sam over drk/drg/etc. If that's what they want come that job if not start your own run or do it some other time. However, if you are going to play one of the less mainstream jobs you better make sure you gear them as well as you would the more OP jobs. There is no excuse to half *** a job. (I don't mean r/e/m only obviously by this statement)
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2015-01-27 10:13:24
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Sylph.Safiyyah said: »
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Hell, my LS currently uses setups with stuff like DRG DNC as our top 2 DDs. We win stuff just fine.

Well DRG and DNC are two of the top five-ish DDs at the moment, lol.

Yes, that's true. But the point is that it's not the cookie cutter mentality of "SAM or THF onry!" You don't see random shouts asking for a DRG or a DNC. I'm sure our group would also win the same content with our best DRK and best PUP filling the top DD slots.

Play what you like, play it well, and any well played/geared DD job will do fine in a DD role. I like my DNC more than my equally well geared THF, so I tend to play that even though the current status quo is "THF numbah one!". (I also beat most THFs on a parse, but I digress... :P)

THF can't be a bandwagon job for the same reason BLU and DNC can't, it requires too many variables and conditions to reach anywhere close to it's theoretical damage. For THF it's worse because the THF can't teleport and relies on other humans to be in exactly the right place at exactly the right time doing exactly the right thing. Anything else happens and it destroys their damage, stuff like stun, knockback, amnesia, terror and paralyze inflict tremendous penalties to their damage output because they rely on using JA's timed to precisely coincide with them hitting 3000TP, firing off WS going off within 2s of that JA activation and another player standing precisely in front of them or them standing precisely behind the target and withing the SC window of someone else's WS that had to happen immediately before the THFs. It's hard enough for someone who's played the jobs for years to get all the timing down, for random people who haven't dedicated all that time playing THF in party setups it's virtually impossible. You can write the gearswap, give them all the gear, arrange their macros for optimum timing, but you can't give them the sheer amount of skill. And that's without going into accounting for entropy f*cking up everything.

Now take a job like SAM, where I could write a gearswap for someone, arrange their macros and get them the gear, and they could push the same button every 5s and still do great damage. The mechanics of the job reduce the number of requirements and precision needed for success. WAR is somewhat more difficult then SAM, multiple important JA's to manage and situational load outs, but it's still much easier then jobs like THF, DNC and BLU. It's on the low end of the high DPS scale only because it's WS's of choice are lacking compared to the recent updates. Same story with DRK. That may or may not change if / when SE does another WS update. MNK was in the same category as SAM, just point the player at the target, give them the automated scrips and it's ridiculously hard to screw up.

That some people still manage to screw up MNK and SAM, even with all the information we've made available on this site and all the pre-made automated tools at their disposal, just goes to show up HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE your playerbase can be.
 Cerberus.Senkyuutai
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2015-01-27 10:18:50
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Blazed1979 said: »
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
TL;DR - @OP - You're never gimping your party if you know how to play your job correctly. You likely could come PUP to an event, and as long as you use macro gearsets, know the value of skillchaining, understand what PDT actually means, and can piece together some decent builds, you're fine.

Like Valli said, at this point in the game, there isn't anything wrong with other DDs. Its just the stigma that anything besides THF & SAM is lolgimp. People need to give it a rest for a change.

Its funny how the pendulum swings in this game so often. it kind of reminds me of Street fighter. One minute, everyone is playing Ryu, then Cammy, then Akuma... all because of tier lists and ***. Buncha ***-riding clowns all hype when their job gets some shine, feeling inclined to take shots at other jobs. Give it 2 months. You're prized posession of a job will be outperformed by the next. It's just a matter of time.
Cammy is the only exception, it could be compared to SAM. It was good in every version.

You can hardly say that people have been bandwagoning past vanilla.

FFXI and SFIV (or any fighting game for that matter) can't really be compared. Each version of SF gave advantage to a specific way of playing. Vanilla was damage, Super was turtle (sup Mike Ross), every other version was damage based. And even then, post 2011, there hasn't been a single year where top 8 isn't full of mid tier characters, or niche as *** characters.

Until the day where people come as WHM/SMN and outparse anyone because skill and brain quality is actually a factor, you can't compare either.


Soul Calibur series - Voldo. Hate that gimp pos.
I play Grant in Garou so I'm not allowed to ***talk characters according to my friends.
 Asura.Devdas
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By Asura.Devdas 2015-01-27 10:39:47
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I think people are over exaggerating how difficult of a job Thief is to play... Yes it has abilities that require precise timing to pull off and precise positioning, but that doesn't really make the job unbandwagon-able. Bully -> SA -> Rudra's is easy and that should be the only real time you should have to worry about Sneak Attacking anyway cause either the mob will be dead or you will have capped hate and be tanking anyway. Most DD players that I have seen, even the less skilled ones, tend to stand in one spot unless re-positioning is required for any reason. You should have no effort landing trick attack, and even if you don't land it you are still going to be doing 9-10k weaponskills on whatever you are fighting.

People keep trying to compare players of different skill levels with each other, which is not helping anyone's argument. You have to assume the SAM, WAR, DRK, THF, whatever are all equally geared and all equally either know how to play their job or don't.

All these random stats that you say effect THF (Knockback, Amnesia, etc.) will effect other jobs just as greatly in their damage output. Hell at this point it might effect them more considering THF has pretty high white damage. I don't know about other groups but for events like incursion waiting for 300tp to SC, in my opinion, is a complete waste of time. You will skillchain without trying but you shouldn't be sitting there going "Okay I have 300 TP but this person has 40 so I am going to sit here and wait for them to get TP and pray nothing bad happens in the meantime to *** this plan up."

Edit: The exception to this SC rule obviously is a lot of Unity mobs such as the roc in Terrigan or the Emet Harness NM who take super bonus damage from skillchains and less from regular melee attacks; however, you do these usually with 6-10 people on average that it changes the dynamic of the fight anyway.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Valli
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-01-27 11:19:29
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Asura.Devdas said: »
I think people are over exaggerating how difficult of a job Thief is to play... Yes it has abilities that require precise timing to pull off and precise positioning, but that doesn't really make the job unbandwagon-able. Bully -> SA -> Rudra's is easy and that should be the only real time you should have to worry about Sneak Attacking anyway cause either the mob will be dead or you will have capped hate and be tanking anyway. Most DD players that I have seen, even the less skilled ones, tend to stand in one spot unless re-positioning is required for any reason.

I wish this was even 10% true... *** DDtards move CONSTANTLY it's so *** IRRITATING. And Tarus... god damn tarus are so hard to stand behind, I can't even see them, they're hidden under my text box.

Not to mention conal moves. Everyone trying to get away from cone attacks instead of manning up and putting on PDT. And don't even get started on enmity resets and mages... *** cowards.

Knockback, singlehandedly the most god damn irritating thing for a THF ever. (aside from weapon strip)... a knockbacked DD will not only move AROUND the mob, but never move back CLOSE ENOUGH to be TA'd.

How about walls. DD put their backs to walls to prevent knockbacks. And TA's. How about terrain issues. Standing in shitty spots that have a small bump the THF has to clip on to TA.
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 Asura.Loire
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By Asura.Loire 2015-01-27 11:30:32
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Asura.Devdas said: »
I think people are over exaggerating how difficult of a job Thief is to play... Yes it has abilities that require precise timing to pull off and precise positioning, but that doesn't really make the job unbandwagon-able. Bully -> SA -> Rudra's is easy and that should be the only real time you should have to worry about Sneak Attacking anyway cause either the mob will be dead or you will have capped hate and be tanking anyway. Most DD players that I have seen, even the less skilled ones, tend to stand in one spot unless re-positioning is required for any reason. You should have no effort landing trick attack, and even if you don't land it you are still going to be doing 9-10k weaponskills on whatever you are fighting.

People keep trying to compare players of different skill levels with each other, which is not helping anyone's argument. You have to assume the SAM, WAR, DRK, THF, whatever are all equally geared and all equally either know how to play their job or don't.

All these random stats that you say effect THF (Knockback, Amnesia, etc.) will effect other jobs just as greatly in their damage output. Hell at this point it might effect them more considering THF has pretty high white damage. I don't know about other groups but for events like incursion waiting for 300tp to SC, in my opinion, is a complete waste of time. You will skillchain without trying but you shouldn't be sitting there going "Okay I have 300 TP but this person has 40 so I am going to sit here and wait for them to get TP and pray nothing bad happens in the meantime to *** this plan up."

Edit: The exception to this SC rule obviously is a lot of Unity mobs such as the roc in Terrigan or the Emet Harness NM who take super bonus damage from skillchains and less from regular melee attacks; however, you do these usually with 6-10 people on average that it changes the dynamic of the fight anyway.
Have to remember Dev, we play an entirely different FFXI than 95% of the playerbase. A lot of this sadly won't apply. Case in point Vali's complaints above. None of that is really an issue that affects us but to most it would.
 Asura.Devdas
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By Asura.Devdas 2015-01-27 11:45:14
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Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
And Tarus... god damn tarus are so hard to stand behind, I can't even see them, they're hidden under my text box.

Lol... Please...

Yeah I guess I underestimate the lack of skill in a majority of the playerbase, but at the same time it's not hard to go into a pickup group and say "hey can you move a little closer so I can Trick Attack you..." I've never ever EVER in all my years playing this game seen people move away from conals... a majority of the time people don't even realize an ability is conal. I'm pretty sure you are mentioning situations that happen on occasion to make them seem like they are a constant thing.

The walls thing I am 100% behind though, that ***is the most annoying thing in the world. However, the large issue is that if someone is doing something wrong a slight bit of communication I found makes the person fix the issue at least long enough for you to finish whatever you are doing. The overall point I was making that while these things do gimp the damage you as a thief are putting out it doesn't diminish the fact that Rudra's is a very very powerful weaponskill right now. Hell, Loire's melee bard puts out damage that probably beats a majority of "pickup" Samurai, and that is without the SA/TA bonus. Thief is very player friendly to be average at, which from what I read is what most people are comparing their skills to.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Valli
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-01-27 11:52:39
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You know, a little communication goes a long way... But after the thousandth time telling the same person... hey... scoot up... again.... You get TIRED OF DOING IT.

They don't move SPECIFICALLY to avoid the conal, they move because the mob has a devastating conal attack, in preparation.

I've actually seen, and I *** you not, SAM's specifically move out of the way, to avoid tanking. Miss out on overwhelm bonus JUST so they don't have to stand in front of a mob... I'm dead serious.

(I don't talk about anyone in particular, this is overall experience from being a THF for 11 years on this damn game)

I've actually in years past, we're goin oldschool here, but this would still hold true. Due to thieves complaining about DD never lining up I've actually come in on purpose to be the TA victim on blm/whm/brd w/e just so the THF can participate.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2015-01-27 11:54:46
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So much stuff to sort through.
Quote:
The responsibility imho falls on good party leaders. A good party leader can work around anything and will have the game knowledge of each job to know how to piece a good party together no matter if it's non standard or not. It IS braindead easy to just go with the current meta and know it will work. That doesn't mean the jobs themselves are braindead easy. It's just people are afraid of failure and want what they know will win, so they follow the meta because it's easier to do so.

The bolded portion couldn't be more true. If you've ever payed attention to who is doing the most shout-groups, it is usually people who can organize and work with what they;ve got. Good party leaders. Whenever I see something in a party that doesn't make sense, I tell the leader. Sometimes he's adamant that a BRD MUST be in this slot, or a WHM HAS TO be here for this reason, but to me, that reflects poor game knowledge overall if you're unwilling to make changes in the party to what is available. You shouldn't be so dense that you can't find a suitable replacement for the missing job.

Back to my street fighter example: You only really learn to appreciate the game when you play all of the characters indiscrimiately. Sure, you can have your favorites, but you can never value each individual character until you learn all of their moves, normals, spacing, reaction, etc. You appreciate the game more when you get a bird's-eye view of the scope of every character.
The same is true in FFXI. If you've been preconditioned to believe that only whm, sam, thf, brd, and pld can ever make something work, then you sir are a gimp. If you refuse to level support jobs or tank jobs for xyz reason, you're basically admitting that you're either intellectually incapable of learning the mechanics, lazy, or content being one-dimensional (yes, having 8 DD jobs is extremely linear, and you only fulfill ONE role in ffxi, regardless of how many weapons you swing).

When I said THF was braindead easy, I was pretty much discussing the effort > reward ratio. On BLU, if I suck, its pretty much evident immediately upon engaging a monster. On THF, as long as you have one WS unlocked and hit maybe a few buttons, you're pretty much average or +. The same applies to RUN and PLD. There are always going to be complicated and precise measures to any job (the dedicated players learn this), but the job itself can successfully be played by a grade-school student who picked up the game 1 week ago. Don't try to over-emphasize simple tasks.

I mean, just last night I formed a Goobbue party with 4 THF, PLD, BRD, and me as GEO. I can tell you that the good THFs never died the entire time. I specifically told them "we don't have a WHM, so don't SAWS. Only TAWS, because curing on GEO is tough on this NM".

Hence comes my closing remarks: Want to know who the really gimp players are of xyz job? Look at the party list. If the player who is on a great job is always dead, regardless of his damage output, chances are, he just sucks and doesn't know how to play properly. True, it could be that his mage support is lacking; But if in more scenarios than not he's always dying or just doesn't have any fundamental knowledge of survivability, he's a flowchart. Good Players always have the ability to adapt to the needs of the party and adjust their playstyle accordingly. Gimps concede "This setup isn't going to work" or "I died cuz i didn't get cured".

All he knows is DMG DMG DMG SWING SWING SWING. These are the types of players that need to be shunned.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2015-01-27 12:39:24
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If you know how to macro hands+ shadowbind if the tank dies, you're valuable in my eyes. Or just run away from TT. You'd be surprised how many RNGs die or take large damage from a monster that, outside of two instances, cannot move.
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By Asura.Devdas 2015-01-27 12:55:08
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Well like I said earlier, this game is 99% support jobs and dependent on how good your mages and support are. You can be the best player in the game with the perfect gear and PDT/MDT sets; however, that isn't going to save you if your healer is busy playing with themselves instead of keeping cures/hastes/buffs up.

Verda said: »
Shush, I will spam last stand on my ranger and you will like it. Or at least be too busy trying to save the party from a wipe to complain... much.
I know this feeling all too well on corsair in Divine Might...

Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
You know, a little communication goes a long way... But after the thousandth time telling the same person... hey... scoot up... again.... You get TIRED OF DOING IT.

I've actually in years past, we're goin oldschool here, but this would still hold true. Due to thieves complaining about DD never lining up I've actually come in on purpose to be the TA victim on blm/whm/brd w/e just so the THF can participate.

I suppose it's my experience as a linkshell leader before that I expect the same people to make the same mistake over and over again and to have to mention it. Does it get tiring? Sure... But it's something that has to be done.

I guess being lucky by having a linkshell full of people who overall know what they are doing has made me jaded regarding unskilled players. I have been in bad pickup groups and complain about them constantly , but I try to avoid having to associate with people who's skill level I don't know. Hell, I trick attack our GEOs quite often now a days if it's convenient for me.

I don't think participate is the correct word you are looking for, I think you are more trying to say... excel? The Rudra's buff is a huge help to the people that have the complaint of their partners being unable to support them and they can still fire off super strong WS and assist in making Darkness Skillchains with the other main DD jobs.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-01-27 13:02:45
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A THF that can't TA may as well be a MNK/WAR/DRG/DRK/SAM, so I did mean participate... better to have the survivability. #firstworldproblems

THF is the new 2005 DRK, the glass cannon. (the bandwagon thfs).

Anyway, none of this relates to WAR.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2015-01-28 04:13:47
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It hurts THF the most
Asura.Devdas said: »
I think people are over exaggerating how difficult of a job Thief is to play... Yes it has abilities that require precise timing to pull off and precise positioning, but that doesn't really make the job unbandwagon-able. Bully -> SA -> Rudra's is easy and that should be the only real time you should have to worry about Sneak Attacking anyway cause either the mob will be dead or you will have capped hate and be tanking anyway. Most DD players that I have seen, even the less skilled ones, tend to stand in one spot unless re-positioning is required for any reason. You should have no effort landing trick attack, and even if you don't land it you are still going to be doing 9-10k weaponskills on whatever you are fighting.

People keep trying to compare players of different skill levels with each other, which is not helping anyone's argument. You have to assume the SAM, WAR, DRK, THF, whatever are all equally geared and all equally either know how to play their job or don't.

All these random stats that you say effect THF (Knockback, Amnesia, etc.) will effect other jobs just as greatly in their damage output. Hell at this point it might effect them more considering THF has pretty high white damage. I don't know about other groups but for events like incursion waiting for 300tp to SC, in my opinion, is a complete waste of time. You will skillchain without trying but you shouldn't be sitting there going "Okay I have 300 TP but this person has 40 so I am going to sit here and wait for them to get TP and pray nothing bad happens in the meantime to *** this plan up."

Edit: The exception to this SC rule obviously is a lot of Unity mobs such as the roc in Terrigan or the Emet Harness NM who take super bonus damage from skillchains and less from regular melee attacks; however, you do these usually with 6-10 people on average that it changes the dynamic of the fight anyway.

No we're not.

It hurts THF the most because damn near all your damage is tied into firing off a 3000TP WS at a precise moment under precise conditions. A little bit off and you just blew your wad for crap. Hit a WS-spam DD and all it does is delay their damage slightly, for THF is screws your timers up for no gain since your already at 3000TP. Essentially it takes away SA / TA, bully is one SA per 3 min vs one SE every 60s. And lets not get started on how bad TA is to land. In real fighting conditions no THF will be landing a high powered RS every 30s, which is what all those spreadsheets at 1000+ DPS keep telling you.

Valli is correct with all the sh!t that can and does happen, trying to pretend it doesn't is hilarious because I see your type suffer from it constantly. NM's don't stand around with their heads up their a$$'s waiting for you to kill them and drop loot.
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