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FFXIV and the MMO blues~
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19385
By Valefor.Prothescar 2014-05-31 18:15:35
I don't really agree, I haven't play XIV forever so maybe they already change it. But back when I still played it there were no real "Decision making" in FFXIV.
Almost every boss moves were done in the same order, so you just memorize the move and use the same strategy to counter it. FFXIV test your ability to execute the strategy as a whole team correctly, but it doesn't allow any decision making because there's only 1 decision you can make.
Red circle popping on the floor? Get out of the red circle, you have no choice. Fireball coming next? Get into the firestorm. Almost every boss fight is "you just do A when boss do B".
this depends entirely on the class you're playing, but most of them require more intelligent movement than just "red circle, run away!" for optimal performance. makes the same difference as knowing which gearsets to use in XI in most of the fights, especially for DPS and Healers. For tanks, it's more lax. Knowing how to properly exchange hate with an offtank or something is as complex as it gets unless there's large amounts of adds or something in a fight.
for a DPS, knowing when and how to avoid telegraphed AoEs can be 10~30 DPS difference.
Server: Shiva
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-05-31 18:19:59
Big shock, Afania doesn't agree with me.
Everything you said about FFXIV falls under what I consider to be "decision-making." Your decision is succeed or fail. It doesn't matter whether you make that decision by balancing your gear to cap your Accuracy, by setting up your macros to adapt to what action you're taking, or by getting out of the fire: they're all the same succeed or fail choice.
What I never said was that the choice was complex. It rarely is. People talk about FFXIV and WoW rotations as dull and this seems to be because they choose not to engage the fine-tuning complexity. Simple WoW example: for the moment, whenever you cast a spell that causes a damage-over-time effect, it takes a snapshot of your stats when you cast the spell (FFXI works the same way) to determine the damage it will do over its full duration. People just hitting 1-2-3-1-2-3 ad nauseum aren't timing their abilities to take advantage of various stat boosts and, thereby, perform better. In FFXI, especially since iLevel gear is covered in stats, it is entirely possible to get by with few or no gear swaps, but you'd look down your nose at someone who opted to do that, correct? Same principle.
 Ragnarok.Afania
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-05-31 18:24:08
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
However, every boss fight has a unique set of mechanics that needs to be learned and played properly through. Very few of the fights allow for anyone to *** up and do it incorrectly; ..... Not a single *** up is permitted.
I think the more accurate way to describe the difference between XI and XIV is, the PVE pt in FFXIV is like a machine and every player is just a small part of the machine, so every part of the machine must function correctly. If you fail to do something correctly then the entire team/machine won't function properly and result a wipe. You can't really "be yourself" in FFXIV's team, you can only be a small part of the machine and not to *** up.
Although FFXI is the same concept, but FFXI allows more personality and different play style in the team. There are more choices to make that's not just "Do A when boss do B".
For months in FFXIV I've been trying to be different and get the emotional attachment with my avatar, but I failed over and over again. So I just gave up and accept the fact that this game doesn't allow me to be an unique pretty snowflake. Living in FFXIV feels suffocating, I can't *** up and make mistakes, I can't be different, I can only be a perfect kid that never make any mistake in raids, like everyone else.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2014-05-31 18:27:51
What do you think XI is? If the fight isn't a mindless zerg, you're performing action A to counter the monster's action B. There's really not much difference. There's some minimal leeway in XI, but you still won't see someone bringing certain jobs to something like Calihm and actually winning. Every job is relevant in XIV, the playstyle may be static but that's no different than XI. You can try to be a special snowflake all you want, that doesn't mean bringing DNC to Marjami delve and spamming Dancing Edge instead of Exenterator or something is a good idea.
Meanwhile in XIV, there's people bringing 1 tank instead of 2 to endgame fights, cycling alchemy buffs and whatnot, to push extra DPS and optimize their setups for faster, safer clears. In XI you have very little available build diversity in that sense. They aren't as disparate as you're making it out to be, but don't try to make it seem like XI is the only one with benefits.
Server: Shiva
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-05-31 18:28:39
Although FFXI is the same concept, but FFXI allows more personality and different play style in the team. There are more choices to make that's not just "Do A when boss do B". Give an example, please. Your Delve group might be able to recover if you miss your Stun attempt on Incinerating Lahar, but that doesn't mean you should continue doing so.
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Ragnarok.Afania
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-05-31 18:36:58
Valefor.Prothescar said: »this depends entirely on the class you're playing, but most of them require more intelligent movement than just "red circle, run away!" for optimal performance. makes the same difference as knowing which gearsets to use in XI in most of the fights, especially for DPS and Healers. For tanks, it's more lax. Knowing how to properly exchange hate with an offtank or something is as complex as it gets unless there's large amounts of adds or something in a fight.
for a DPS, knowing when and how to avoid telegraphed AoEs can be 10~30 DPS difference.
No comment on tanks since I never play any tank in any MMO, but DPS wise that's that's still within the realm of memorizing stuff and not really making choices.
Everything you said about FFXIV falls under what I consider to be "decision-making."
I guess I have different POV toward decision making then. Not even making sets to cap acc count as decision making since you have to cap it.
My def for decision making: No matter which decision you make you can make a logical, reasonable explanation to tell ppl why. Decision making =/= optimization.
Server: Valefor
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2014-05-31 18:39:05
How is making a decision not attempting to optimize something? That's the entire point of making a correct decision.
How is making proper gearsets not optimization, but it is decision making? Furthermore, how is knowing how to react properly to a boss mechanic or AoE optimization, but not decision making?
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-05-31 18:41:16
No matter which decision you make you can make a logical, reasonable explanation to tell ppl why. Provide an in-game example. At least you recognize that you're trying to be a special snowflake, but if you're going to argue this is how you want to operate, please let us know how it has worked for you.
I was never a job exclusionist in my parties. I'd happily group with Puppetmasters and Beastmasters and Blue Magi and Thieves and whatever other job people consider sub-optimal. I'd do my best to find a way to make it work. Sometimes it wouldn't. My many varied attempts on Alexander (the boss fight, not the server) with my group of friends failed repeatedly because we simply didn't have the mix of geared jobs available to complete it. It was frustrating and I fought tooth-and-nail against it, but I can't alter the programming as a player and, ultimately, the game is about conforming to the demands of the program, not the other way 'round.
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-05-31 18:43:56
In XI enemies' moves are randomized(to a degree) but what the player does isn't any less repetitive than the other games.
In 11 if the enemy targets you hit macro to change to a dt set, in 14 you move the character instead.
In 14 you use the skills cycle thing, attacking most of the time in the same order. 11 is better you think? Auto-attack to 100 and then use almost always the same ws, popping ja when needed, how's that more engaging?
Truth is all mmo are equally repetitive.
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Ragnarok.Afania
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-05-31 19:07:38
Valefor.Prothescar said: »What do you think XI is? If the fight isn't a mindless zerg, you're performing action A to counter the monster's action B. There's really not much difference. There's some minimal leeway in XI, but you still won't see someone bringing certain jobs to something like Calihm and actually winning. Every job is relevant in XIV, the playstyle may be static but that's no different than XI. You can try to be a special snowflake all you want, that doesn't mean bringing DNC to Marjami delve and spamming Dancing Edge instead of Exenterator or something is a good idea.
Meanwhile in XIV, there's people bringing 1 tank instead of 2 to endgame fights, cycling alchemy buffs and whatnot, to push extra DPS and optimize their setups for faster, safer clears. In XI you have very little available build diversity in that sense. They aren't as disparate as you're making it out to be, but don't try to make it seem like XI is the only one with benefits.
You're talking about the setup/strat of ENTIRE team, I'm talking about the individual. And even if you're using entire team as an example, you can make pt setup choices in FFXI too, it's not like FFXIV do it better.
For example, let me ask you a question:
You're a SAM, fighting a dangerous NM spamming AoE. You died and weakened, now you have 3 choices:
1. Run in and continue to fight in full DPS melee set.
2. Run in and continue to fight in DT- and +HP hybrid.
3. Stay out of AoE and /ra with ranged set.(Inb4 some SAM pop and yell "ranged attack isn't ideal on SAM")
That's the decision making. Each options are viable that's more than optimization, and under each option you 100 other choices to make too. For example, when you pick No.2 do you run in in more offensive gears or less, do you use more ILV119 gears or lower ILV gears for more offensive DPS? For No.3 it also involve decision making and time investment for the majority: Do you build a ranged set for SAM in a niche situation like this, or do you invest your time on other jobs instead cuz /ra is useless on SAM.
No matter which option you pick, that's what makes your character YOU. No matter you're a SAM that just run in melee again and died, run in in turtle melee set and try, run in in SUPER turtle melee set and try more conservatively, or just /ra because your SAM has /ra set for some reason. The choice you make is what makes YOU an individual, not just a small part in a machine. Even if the choice you can make is silly, such as run in and died again, choices are choices.
If your job is COR then there's even option 4, such as spending rest of your unweak time to redo rolls for better numbers. Or try for a NO.11, by repeatedly overwrite old rolls with new rolls, that allows free bust and you can aim for better number DD rolls.
Can you do something similar in FFXIV? Probably. If I remember correctly DRG has ranged ability(angon, I think? I forgot), and I often spam it when I can't get close. But the choices you can make about it is much less v.s the above example in FFXI: I don't recall gears to enhance the ranged JA, thus no "spend my time to get this gear or spend my time on other gear" or "should I wear gear to enhance this JA before I engage?" choice. And if you choose not to engage AT ALL, there isn't much else you can do that can still contribute.
So in FFXIV, you can't really make choices about "which gear set to run in" because you can't swap them, you can make a choice to use /ra but you can't make a choice about spending time and effort to enhance it for it, and there were no option 4.
They MAY change it now with new gear/JA and I'm not sure, but back when I played FFXIV, it didn't work that way.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2014-05-31 19:16:26
Did you play XIV past lv 30? Or at least read my last 2 or 3 posts. There's a large difference between mindless dodging, playing by the numbers and using your brainmeats to determine the most ideal way to process your dodges and react to boss mechanics. It makes a significant impact on performance, just like tweaking gearsets (see: optimizing) in XI. Do you think that when you raise in XIV you magically get revived to full HP/TP/MP? Because you don't. You need to decide how to properly manage your resources to lose the least of your effectiveness as possible. Ex.: If you're a BRD and a healer or something just died, you need to consciously decide whether to put up Ballad or just try to burn down what's left of the boss's HP.
Knowing when to dodge, how to dodge, how to manage your movement, how to manage defensive and support cooldowns, when to drop certain abilities in your rotation in the middle of a fight... All of this is relevant and you seem to be either ignorant of it or you're intentionally removing it from your comparison.
Also, you can't create a schism between group intelligence and solo intelligence. Unless you're going to go solo all the things, personal decisions and performance go toward the whole group, not just you. Everyone counts. I'd like to see you tank or DD properly with a BRD, COR, and/or WHM who doesn't know what they're doing. I'm sure it'll go great.
Ragnarok.Afania
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-05-31 19:26:53
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Knowing when to dodge, how to dodge, how to manage your movement, how to manage defensive and support cooldowns. All of this is relevant and you seem to be either ignorant of it or you're intentionally removing it from your comparison.
I didn't remove it from the comparison, I just see movement something you try to execute instead of a choice with advantage and disadvantage. It's the same as rotation, once you figure out the most optimal way to do it, that's only right way to do it. You keep using the word "Knowing how to" and "right choices", that proved you have same opinion.
You challenged me to give you an example, how about you give me your specific example explaining how FFXIV allows decision making as an individual. And no matter which decision you make, it's all "correct" choice with different advantage and disadvantage.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2014-05-31 19:31:02
You're seeing things in binary when in reality it's a sliding scale. I'll repeat myself one last time: knowing how to manage your movement properly is essential to optimal performance. It isn't something that just happens, it requires active decisions. Same goes for the proper usage of cooldowns, debuffs, buffs, potions, etc.; same goes for knowing when to alter your rotation to best serve the situation. It isn't black and white.
I'm not entirely sure you actually know what the English definition of "decision" is, though. If something has more than one outcome (advantageous, disadvantageous), and you need to choose which outcome occurs, that's called a decision. You just basically defined it yourself in your last sentence while simultaneously saying it isn't the exact same thing that you've been trying to argue for this whole time.
By Afania 2014-05-31 19:31:09
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Also, you can't create a schism between group intelligence and solo intelligence. Unless you're going to go solo all the things, personal decisions and performance go toward the whole group, not just you. Everyone counts. I'd like to see you tank or DD properly with a BRD, COR, and/or WHM who doesn't know what they're doing. I'm sure it'll go great.
Of course everyone counts, this is MMO. IMO, FFXI has right balance, and FFXIV leans toward the whole group too heavily to fit my taste.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2014-05-31 19:34:27
So let's go back to my previous example:
Quote: I'd like to see you tank or DD properly with a BRD, COR, and/or WHM who doesn't know what they're doing. I'm sure it'll go great.
Are you trying to tell me that being a snowflake in XI is somehow going to rectify this? You don't have to rely on your group? You don't need everyone to play their part to win? Why not just solo everything then?
It's the exact same thing as relying on your group to play properly in XIV. There is, quite literally, no difference between the two.
Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-05-31 19:35:15
14 for example has monk and dragoon which benefits from attacking either from behind or the side, depending on the ability. Now as mobs moves are scripted you may know that the upcoming attack might put you in danger if it finds you in either position, so you might want to sacrifice some dps for safety, or change your cycles entirely depending on such situations. Isn't that strategy? Doesn't that require thinking?
I don't think anyone wants to claim 14 is some grand strategy game, it's just not different from other mmo, including 11.
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Ragnarok.Afania
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-05-31 19:46:46
Valefor.Prothescar said: »You're seeing things in binary when in reality it's a sliding scale. I'll repeat myself one last time: knowing how to manage your movement properly is essential to optimal performance. It isn't something that just happens, it requires active decisions. Same goes for the proper usage of cooldowns, debuffs, buffs, potions, etc.; same goes for knowing when to alter your rotation to best serve the situation. It isn't black and white.
You can do that in almost every MMO, including FFXI. You can make choices about play safe or play aggressively in XI too. But you don't have as many gear choices/weapon choices in FFXIV and that limited the choice you can make, if that's not clear enough.
Valefor.Prothescar said: »You just basically defined it yourself in your last sentence while simultaneously saying it isn't the exact same thing that you've been trying to argue for this whole time.
I think we have different explanation about "optimization" but not decision making. You sound like "optimization" is "making the choice you think that's the best for that situation", but my understanding for the word "optimization" is "make the right choice that's always right, no matter who you pt with"
In the above example about SAM, you can't really tell which choice you make that can give you the best DPS until you try, thus it isn't optimization to me. I can run in and melee in full DPS set and die because my support suck, and do less dmg, or I can run in in full DPS set and live, and ended up do more choice than option 2 and 3. But I won't know the result until I try it, so it doesn't fit my def for optimization. Because whether option 1, 2 or 3 is optimal or not, completely depend on who you pt with, and even if you pt with same person I never know if they'll make mistake or not.
But maybe it's optimization to you because you're making a choice that you think you can do the most dmg, even if the result is different from what you've expect.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2014-05-31 19:50:27
There's no such thing as a choice that is right 100% of the time. That said, your definition of what the word "optimization" means is askew: the whole point of optimizing is to reach a point of optimal effectiveness, ergo, my definition of optimization is correct. Don't try to reinvent the English language to fit your needs.
You keep contradicting yourself, and it's evident that you haven't really got a grasp on what it is you're trying to say.
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By Odin.Minefield 2014-05-31 19:53:53
I'm pretty sure my choices are always 100% right, all the time. >:c
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Ragnarok.Afania
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-05-31 19:56:02
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Are you trying to tell me that being a snowflake in XI is somehow going to rectify this? You don't have to rely on your group? You don't need everyone to play their part to win? Why not just solo everything then?
You don't wipe your entire pt cuz one member accidentally failed to pass the rot in 1st coil turn 2. Lahar doesn't wipe your pt if your SCH fail stun. The room for error in XIV for the entire pt is much smaller than FFXI, even if you play perfect in XIV one small mistake from your team member can wipe you.
And I just said in games like FFXIV, I'd much rather play single player action game. But I can tolerate FFXI as a MMO.
It's just the taste thing.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-05-31 19:58:43
You don't wipe your entire pt cuz one member accidentally failed to pass the rot in 1st coil turn 2. Lahar doesn't wipe your pt if your SCH fail stun. The room for error in XIV for the entire pt is much smaller than FFXI, even if you play perfect in XIV one small mistake from your team member can wipe you.
And I just said in games like FFXIV, I'd much rather play single player action game. But I can tolerate FFXI as a MMO.
It's just the taste thing. It honestly sounds like you dislike responsibility and accountability. I suspect that really is the case, too, as you said you don't play tank jobs.
For my taste, I'd rather know that I'm not only critical to the group, but that I'm singularly responsible for dragging it out of someone else's screw-up.
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Ragnarok.Afania
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-05-31 20:01:56
It honestly sounds like you dislike responsibility and accountability. I suspect that really is the case, too, as you said you don't play tank jobs.
For my taste, I'd rather know that I'm not only critical to the group, but that I'm singularly responsible for dragging it out of someone else's screw-up.
This is silly, in single player games it's the same too, if you failed to dodge a boss move in single player games you pay for it.
In FFXIV, you often can't do anything to fix 1 member's mistake though, wipe usually comes fast and in some case it's instant wipe. However you CAN live with unstunned lahar if your DD/WHM play better. I'd rather to get a chance to fix mistakes, instead of instant wipe if someone *** up.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2014-05-31 20:04:35
there's only a handful of fights where one member's *** results in an immediate full group wipe. if we want to cherry pick fights, go do Wopket with a non-yagrush WHM who hasn't got a cursna set and doesn't know that erase removes flash.
Ragnarok.Afania
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-05-31 20:17:58
Valefor.Prothescar said: »there's only a handful of fights where one member's *** results in an immediate full group wipe. if we want to cherry pick fights, go do Wopket with a non-yagrush WHM who hasn't got a cursna set and doesn't know that erase removes flash.
DDs can bring med if that's the case. Also wopket isn't instant wipe even if cursna/erase fail. Wopket can be kited or maybe even tanked by WHM. You MAY time out but you may still save the run if you kill faster in previous NM: carry ppl's weight and fix other's mistakes by playing better.
Certain moves in FFXIV gives you 0 chance to save the run if 1 out of 8 ppl *** up on something. There's little you can do if the move wiped the pt even if you're super pro at the job and capable of carrying 2 member's weight.
I'm not trying to argue which design is better, but I'd rather get a chance to fix the pt mistake instead of having the entire pt gets the punishment cuz 1 person made a small mistake.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-05-31 20:49:32
In FFXIV, you often can't do anything to fix 1 member's mistake though, wipe usually comes fast and in some case it's instant wipe. However you CAN live with unstunned lahar if your DD/WHM play better. I'd rather to get a chance to fix mistakes, instead of instant wipe if someone *** up. You're talking about over-tuned fights. I don't play FFXIV, so I don't know how every fight goes, but WoW: Cataclysm dungeons (especially Heroics) were grossly overtuned at launch and that was when I played the hell out of them. There were a few fights, oddly not the last bosses, that could wipe the party if one person "stood in the fire," as the saying goes, but those were rare and Blizzard acknowledged they went too far. Even then, you could adapt.
If any fight in FFXIV is that knife-edge balanced, it should be adjusted. But I suspect you may be overstating your hand. I do know that the majority of content is nowhere near that overtuned since I've watched enough of the fights as friends play the game.
Ragnarok.Afania
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-05-31 21:10:43
In FFXIV, you often can't do anything to fix 1 member's mistake though, wipe usually comes fast and in some case it's instant wipe. However you CAN live with unstunned lahar if your DD/WHM play better. I'd rather to get a chance to fix mistakes, instead of instant wipe if someone *** up. You're talking about over-tuned fights. I don't play FFXIV, so I don't know how the fights go, but WoW: Cataclysm dungeons (especially Heroics) were grossly overtuned at launch and that was when I played the hell out of them. There were a few fights, oddly not the last bosses, that could wipe the party if one person "stood in the fire," as the saying goes, but those were rare and Blizzard acknowledged they went too far. Even then, you could adapt.
If any fight in FFXIV is that knife-edge balanced, it should be adjusted. But I suspect you may be overstating your hand. I do know that the majority of content is nowhere near that overtuned since I've watched enough of the fights as friends play the game.
I was mostly talking about Allagan rot or any design similar to that, maybe as the ILV go up ppl can survive it, but back when it was out wearing ILV70~90, if you fail to pass the rot it's instant wipe with no chance to recover.
Further more, passing the rot requires every member run to correct member on the right time for around 75% of the fight. You can't do it too early nor too late. So everyone can play perfect until 1% then make a small mistake and wipe.
Is it zomg hard design? No. I cleared it with my first coil PUG after 2 failure. My coil static can also easily clear it weekly with 100% win rate. But sometimes if you go with a pt with one person that just gonna make a mistake at 5% or 1% and give you zero chance to recover 1 person's mistake, it's annoying.
I think there's a new strat for that turn now but it wasn't the case at that time.
If you only watch your friend play it, maybe his group can clear it repeatedly with 0 mistake and you'd feel it's not a bad design cuz ppl has no issue passing it. Well, majority of the experienced pt had no issue too. However, if he go make a pt and invite ONE person that just can't pass rot, there's nothing you can do to fix it except exit....or maybe make him not to pass rot and create more room for error for everyone else.
There were a couple of moves that's also unrecoverable instant kill by knocking the player out of the arena. Although you CAN continue and win if you carry that person's weight, but I think FFXIV is too extreme in many case, with lag.
I never say anything about mistakes shouldn't be punished. Of course they should, and I think FFXI is just right. If your PLD sucked and died at least you can try to shadowbind, DoT kite and w/e. That is still teamwork and punishment.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-05-31 22:07:41
I never say anything about mistakes shouldn't be punished. Of course they should, and I think FFXI is just right. If your PLD sucked and died at least you can try to shadowbind, DoT kite and w/e. That is still teamwork and punishment. Except the majority of fights in FFXI are timed now, so you really don't have the time to putz around waiting on weakness to wear in order to recover.
That's one thing WoW got right: limiting in-combat resurrections. Tank dies, just wipe and restart. Of course, WoW very rarely has limited the number of attempts you can make, unlike FFXI where failing an orb battle means your orb is forfeit. Old school MMO design: punish you by wasting your time; c.f. losing XP on death.
Ragnarok.Afania
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-05-31 23:20:21
I never say anything about mistakes shouldn't be punished. Of course they should, and I think FFXI is just right. If your PLD sucked and died at least you can try to shadowbind, DoT kite and w/e. That is still teamwork and punishment. Except the majority of fights in FFXI are timed now, so you really don't have the time to putz around waiting on weakness to wear in order to recover.
Nah, it's hard to recover from PLD death because it's not easy to survive, but at least it's not instant HP 0 for everyone and there's room to try. With arise and the fact that you usually have plenty of time left in a content, it is still possible to recover.
And I'm not interested in WoW/FFXIV v.s FFXI design debate anymore when it comes to KI/resurrection/game design. My choice was made already, my XI sub was active for past 5 years and WoW/FFXIV sub was inactive since forever. But obviously ppl just gonna argue back if I said I don't like FFXIV/WoW.
 Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-06-01 01:09:05
XIV was simply not to my taste. Constant, repetitive, often-mindless button mashing (XIV weaponskills essentially taking the place of XI autoattack); group limit break vs 2hr; telegraphed and easily avoidable moves (except when the server lags, of course); little ability or need to build a team or group of players to work together; focus on ilevel gear as opposed to actual level increases; artificial, obvious, and blatantly commercially driven limits that dictate when and how I should schedule my time, or be punished by lack of progress; the utter elimination of textual chat during fights; and the goddamn camera constantly getting stuck, then having to zoom in and then back out.
That isn't to say that XI didn't have many or all of these components, or it's share of frustrations and annoyances (goddamn HNM/sky/morbolger/etc), but it for me it was a significantly more social game than XIV (for better or worse).
Frankly, if I wanted a WoW-esque MMO, I would have gone to play WoW. I didn't want or need a FF-flavored variant.
I would have happily played a more casually-flavored XI, but this was definitely not that.
Server: Titan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10
By Titan.Iluvsporks 2014-06-01 15:53:25
This post touched my heart. Usually I only look at the pic that make you lol thread but this one caught my eye. I too miss XI. I miss that it actually took some skill to play a job. I played mage jobs and you had to know when to cast what spell. XIV its just the same 3 spells over and over. Its so its easy and anyone can do it. XIV is the equivalent of a participation medal. You can't do anything on your own or duo with a buddy on XIV. The biggest reason you can't solo anything is that there is nothing to solo to begin with. Leveling up a job used to be a sense of satisfaction. Hey look what I accomplished. Now its just let me finish this so I can grind out the next one. Same with every new content they release. Once you beat it your compelled to repeat it over and over because you need the gear for your other jobs because you have nothing else to do. End result? You have no sense of pride because EVERYONE has the EXACT same gear. I feel like an abused dog because I refuse to leave hoping it will get better. I always tell myself oh XXXXX event will turn this around or XXXXX patch should really shake it up but it doesn't, ever.
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Playing FFXIV it’s clear to see the effort, heart, talent and desire that’s gone into it. It really is a polished gem in the modern genre's eyes. Anyone who’s experienced in MMO’s over the past decade or more should be able to see this. However saying that, I’d bet that those same experienced players would also agree that A Realm Reborn is a short loved experience. It’s joys are merely skin deep and pass by very fast - typical of MMO's made within the last 5-8 years.
I started playing MMO’s back in 1999 and I remember the sense of pride I’d have in working together with other players in simply earning a level, unlocking a job, an airship pass, a rank, that new piece of equipment or finally saving enough money to buy one, and my favourite of all, reaching that location that was once far beyond your reach due to dangerous mobs. You could see yourself growing and becoming stronger. It was a fantastic gaming experience because we all came together; sometimes I’d play with the same group but I would regularly play with new people too. We all benefited from our time together and got to know the community as a whole by building reputation.
FFXI epitomised this feeling and made it its core feature. Now I’m not for one moment saying the game was perfect, it wasn’t, it certainly left me frustrated many times waiting for a party in lower Jeuno, or having certain jobs finding it incredibly difficult to get an invite due to balance issues. But a lot of these issues could have been prevented if the game had a more pro-active development team that wasn’t so archaic and terrified of making decisions and changes.
Meeting up with people for the first time, travelling to locations, setting up tactics for the fight and getting used to enemies where all parts of each gaming session. Just travelling on its own had to be carefully planned out; did I bring everything I needed? Do I have the right subjob? Is there enough space in my inventory, did I check my moghouse? You had to plan things because it wasn’t easy or cheap coming all the way back. These simple things made the pace of the game change dramatically. People have a tendency to jump on this saying it’s awful, but I really don’t think so. You got used to it, you played more carefully, and you looked at and expected things differently than you do from today’s MMOs.
Each and every member of the group had their own specialised area that was vital for the fluency of the party. You couldn’t wing anything otherwise you’d get punished by the mob. Did the WHM have raise up? These small decisions had big consequences. The game was setup so that you HAD to join with people to progress; this meant that everyone was on the same page. Everyone knew that because life wasn’t perfectly free giving in Vana’diel (unlike new MMO’s) we all needed to work together. Obviously you had the occasional idiot, but that’s commonplace in most MMO’s. The good thing about FFXI was that these people, the whiners, the elitists and the down-right morons were weeded out by the CORE requirements of having to co-operate with people.
Because it did take time travelling, setting up parties and between combat, it gave you time to converse, get to know people and have a laugh. It wasn’t at all about being rushed through something on a “speed-run” or moaned at for taking the time to talk... all of which I'm experiencing from FFXIV after having recently come back to it.
Alongside the gradual levelling scale was the equipment factor. Nothing was given to you; you had to earn your equipment through knowing how to earn money, which while not difficult, did require some planning and know how. This lowered the pace of the game aswell, but at the same time, you could also resell your equipment so your low earnings weren’t a complete gameplay stopgap, it made you THINK about what you were buying/selling and to plan ahead. And it made purchases feel like they were something tangible instead of something that's going to be NPC'd or discarded from your inventory. Obviously FFXI had a lot of problems regarding the economy, mostly due to horrible inflation created by free-running RMTers blowing up the market. But again, this was another area that could have been managed so much better by a development and GM team that actively managed the economy instead of passively watching it die.
The point I’m trying to make with this post is that there is NOTHING WRONG with a game that takes on a more gradual/shallow progression gradient. On the few occasions this topic has been brought up in my FFXIV FC chat and some of us talk about our good times back in FFXI, there is always someone who puts up the argument “Yeah but you can quickly reach level cap here and meet end game” and it’s exactly that outlook in MMO’s that is ruining the genre. MMO isn’t an abbreviation for “endgame” the journey reaching a top level should be the main focus accompanied by the community.
Meeting people, getting to know them through co-operation, having experiences together and both helping each other is KEY to the genre. It’s the entire point of it; it’s not an MMO anymore if the game doesn’t do these things. What’s happening in FFXIV is that whenever you want to party up it means you need to go on a dungeon run, which 99% of the time is via the Duty Finder. Now that’s fine but the problem is, unless your friend or FC members need that specific dungeon or something from it, then you’re going to be playing with people that you’re likely never going to see/play with again because it pairs up randomly with people from all servers. So how are you supposed to build a great community, friendship and trust between players when throughout most of your core gaming experience you’ll mostly play with complete strangers from other servers? The only way, it seems, to make this happen is if you create a static which completely nullifies the point of your gaming experience being casual because you’ve then got to play by a rigid time slot and it creates cliques in FC’s and leaves other people out of your “community” Free Company to fend for themselves for the majority of their playtime. Yes you can argue that this goes on in other games and that those people can make their own friends, but the point I’m making is that if everyone is soloing and using the Duty Finder, then good luck meeting new players and forming lasting bonds.
I long for a game that is a cross between FFXI and FFXIV. In that it shares its core values and focus with FFXI but it has the modern technical improvements of FFXIV and its dynamic development team who are fantastic. If this game is ever made, I’ll be all over it. I’ll play it for 8+ years like I did FFXI and no doubt make friendships and bonds that will last a lifetime, as I have in FFXI and other MMOs that came before (or just after) it. As it stands, these things don’t happen in FFXIV because there’s just no time for it to happen. Everyone is rushing to meet something, hit some goal and because of this the community is really quite awful. It’s not just me but others too that are complaining about the attitude that people have at the endgame regarding ilvl. Countless times people are rude, ragequit, moaning about people not meeting their ilvl epeen. It’s a completely un-enjoyable situation.
If its not completely obvious already (:P) I'm thinking of quitting the genre outright, at least for a good 4-5 years because I just can't see a future for it. Time and time again I come back, check out a new MMO that's supposed to be the next greatest thing, and I find myself staring at something I played 7 years ago. I just think they're all missing the point. Surely there can be room for both casual online games and my ideal MMO. What are the chances of this ever happening?
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