RDM Delve Stunning

Language: JP EN DE FR
2010-09-08
New Items
users online
Forum » FFXI » Jobs » Red Mage » RDM Delve stunning
RDM Delve stunning
First Page 2 3 4 5
 Siren.Stunx
Offline
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
user: Bungie
Posts: 903
By Siren.Stunx 2013-11-27 01:59:53
Link | Quote | Reply
 
not sure if troll.... or not...
[+]
 Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai
Offline
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
user: Starkzz
Posts: 1899
By Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai 2013-11-27 02:05:09
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I've never been so annoyed, yet so humored at the same time on this site until now.

Don't waste your letters on this guy, it's one of those people who don't understand, and never will do.
[+]
 Odin.Celoria
Offline
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
user: celoria
Posts: 84
By Odin.Celoria 2013-11-27 02:16:06
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Siren.Stunx said: »
not sure if troll.... or not...

Not sure if you know what a parse is... or not...
 Lakshmi.Aelius
VIP
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Aelius
By Lakshmi.Aelius 2013-11-27 02:38:29
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Alright, be nice now.

/cracks whip.
 Asura.Kormak
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: kormak
Posts: 75
By Asura.Kormak 2013-11-27 02:53:52
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ok, perhaps it was uncalled for but how is "BLIND II WINS DELVE!!!" not off topic in a RDM delve stun topic?

On topic: we all know RDM cant stun because of their compulsion to run in and melee and or cast low tier nukes.

It would come to a point where it would be stun that Rending Deluge (keeping formless on the MNK's) or cast Thunder III {Hmmm.}
*Casts Thunder3* "Sorry guys wrong macro"
[+]
 Ragnarok.Presidentobama
Offline
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: kasain
Posts: 584
By Ragnarok.Presidentobama 2013-11-27 03:06:28
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Some rdms mention gravity 2. I am confused on this. When I do delve the monster stays 90% of the time in one spot. Gravity is not needed.
Sorry if I sounded blunt about rdms. But mkst ffxi websites they flood the forums crying. Give us cure 5, give us t5, put us on staves. Switch our new one hour and so on. Its the rdm community acting like crybabies that overall gives the impression the job is not worth much.

Other jobs may have a complaint every so often. But its not every update for everything rdm didnt get other jo s did. I do know a few good rdms. They won't write in forums like this but show merit on the battlefield.

Rdm babies go pray in heavenly tower.
[+]
 Bismarck.Davorin
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Davorin
Posts: 232
By Bismarck.Davorin 2013-11-27 03:20:22
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ragnarok.Presidentobama said: »
Some rdms mention gravity 2. I am confused on tbis. When I do delve the monster stays 9t% of the time in one spot.

That was a good laugh. Thanks Obama.
[+]
 Sylph.Murex
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 81
By Sylph.Murex 2013-11-27 03:24:37
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Damn this post still goin on and not about what I made it for o.o anyways I replaced fea's slops with orvail+1 which should bring my recast down on stun a second and I was thinking I could get the torque from meebles and use atrophy feet for an extra 4 haste which should bring my recast down 2 more seconds while keeping fast cast capped and I was also thinking I could replace the grip and ammo with haste+1 on each bringing it down another second.... with all that it should bring my recast down on stun to 8 seconds? I'm not sure if all that swapping would effect my macc too much though and start geting resisted early/quickly on boss fights.
 Sylph.Murex
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 81
By Sylph.Murex 2013-11-27 03:29:22
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I could also replace neck with the torque from meebles and use a vivid strap and replace the earrings/ring with more macc if recast was low enough and macc was an issue the difference is only like 3 macc though so I would think the haste would be better because I really doubt that if i'm havin macc issues 3 macc will help any and generaly I probably couldn't get enough macc with a decent recast
 Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai
Offline
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
user: Starkzz
Posts: 1899
By Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai 2013-11-27 03:35:41
Link | Quote | Reply
 
@obama


...


no, nvm.
 Siren.Stunx
Offline
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
user: Bungie
Posts: 903
By Siren.Stunx 2013-11-27 03:53:03
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Sylph.Murex said: »
I could also replace neck with the torque from meebles and use a vivid strap and replace the earrings/ring with more macc if recast was low enough and macc was an issue the difference is only like 3 macc though so I would think the haste would be better because I really doubt that if i'm havin macc issues 3 macc will help any and generaly I probably couldn't get enough macc with a decent recast


you could also farm/use jeweled collar with fast cast on it, and in case you missed my 1st post in all the trash this thread has turned out to be:


Siren.Stunx said: »
RDM is a good job for those gimp DD only friends that you want to help out lol, dont need it but its a nice bonus.

As far as the OP goes for rdm stuns, stick haste in ammo(or fc), grip(or fc), hands(skirm), legs(bokwus), and feet(bokwus) slots and you should be able to get a good 1-2 sec less recast time. If a fight lasts long enough that you start to resist, well.. you have bigger problems.

At the end of the day, specially with shout groups, doesnt matter what job you bring to stun as long as the person stunning isnt a fail, which by now we are all too familiar with. ive personally stunned on rdm, drk, and sch with no issue.

Using ilvl weapons pretty much handles your macc issues.

and in the event you just want to feel "safe" you can just throw macc augments on the bokwus peices
Offline
By Antisense 2013-11-27 04:15:37
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Been seeing a lot of misconceptions about what is "necessary" for stunning these days.

Stunning back-to-back-to-back TP moves (think Peiste) is NOT necessary but is nice to do (thus SCH for stunning on demand).

A stun partner is NOT necessary but is nice to have. (Two stunners with adequate recast reduction precludes need for Alacrity Stun, so no need for SCH "main" stunner. Alacrity with two stunners is a crutch for poorly constructed recast sets like what Murex is doing trying to "maintain fast cast cap" and/or support failing to maintain adequate magic haste. Prioritizing fast cast over haste is simply fail when easy-to-obtain haste pieces reduce recast more than easy-to-obtain fast cast pieces, especially when you have no Alacrity to cover that fail.)

Apamajas II is NOT necessary but is nice to have for a single SCH stunner. (Similar to Alacrity, Apamajas II is a crutch for support failing to maintain adequate magic haste and relies on Focus and/or Languor to avoid random stun resists before the "stun wall." If you have two stunners, Apamajas II is superfluous and thus Focus/Languor is pointless.)

Stunning all TP moves and all magic makes runs more convenient but is not necessary. Stunning all TP moves on bosses makes runs more convenient but is not necessary. RDM can solo stun all TP moves (TP moves != magic) on Tojil and Dakuwaqa just as SCH can.

Tabula Rasa is nice to have for SCH solo stunning all TP moves and magic on Muyingwa (since time between TP moves can be as short as 6-7 seconds but this is not a typical occurrence; 8, 9, or 10 seconds between TP moves is more common in my experience) if your group kills fast enough, but stunning all TP moves is not necessary. RDM can selectively solo stun TP moves (and ignore magic) just as SCH can.

Overall, SCH is optimal if you want to bring only one stunner (to cover the situations where a fracture run goes more smoothly with stun on demand) but two stunners makes runs easier and provides more of a safety margin. Two stunners can be any combination of RDM, SCH, BLM (no need for an alleged SCH main stunner)
 Bismarck.Llewelyn
Online
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Llewelyn
Posts: 1029
By Bismarck.Llewelyn 2013-11-27 04:48:27
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Can't believe I wasted my time on this, but I was getting really tired of seeing dumb posts.


Target was Kurma; 910 Auto-attack sample size -
Code
Damage Taken

Damage Taken Summary
Player             Total Dmg   Damage %   Melee Dmg   Range Dmg   Abil. Dmg  WSkill Dmg   Spell Dmg  Other Dmg
Llewelyn                4886   100.00 %        4886           0           0           0           0          0
Total                   4886   100.00 %        4886           0           0           0           0          0


Melee Damage Taken
Player             Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit%
Llewelyn                4886  100.00 %     19/237    184/398   257.16      0       0/0    0.00    0.00 %


Defenses

Passive Defenses
Player             Evasion  Evasion %   Parry  Parry %   Counter  Counter %   Intimidate  Intimidate %
Llewelyn               237    26.04 %       0   0.00 %         0     0.00 %            0        0.00 %


Active Defenses
Player             Shadow  Shadow %   Anticipate  Anticipate %   Retaliations  Retaliation %
Llewelyn              654   97.18 %            0        0.00 %              0         0.00 %


Utsusemi

Utsusemi Casting
Player             :Ichi Cast  :Ichi Finished    :Ni Cast  :Ni Finished    Casting Time (est.)
Llewelyn                   43              42         105           105                  6:43


Shadow Use
Player             Shadows Used    Shadows Cast  Shadows Cast(Nin)   Efficiency  Efficiency (Nin)
Llewelyn                    654             441               546      148.30 %         119.78 %


for a visual reference, was NIN/RDM with the following evasion pieces:
ItemSet 316086


Evasion values in the above test:

187 agi
243 eva
417 skill (395 eva)
731 total eva

Average MNK TP set evasion (4/5 Otronif, Oats):

147 agi
137 eva
404 skill (383 eva)
593 total eva

Average MNK TP set #2 evasion (3/5 otronif, uk'uxkaj, Oats):

154 agi
145 eva
404 skill (383 eva)
605 total eva

Note that it was not blinded in this parse. So if it was blinded my evasion rate would be about 41%. Removing 42 evasion in gear (689 total) would put my base evasion rate at 20% (floored evasion rate) with Blind II. So in order for Blind II to start affecting your evasion rate, you'd need about a total of 691 evasion in gear/skill. MNK is 86-98 evasion short of Blind II having any effect on your evasion rate.

Reminder that these numbers are specifically for Kurma.
[+]
 Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai
Offline
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
user: Starkzz
Posts: 1899
By Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai 2013-11-27 05:00:47
Link | Quote | Reply
 
i cant believe you did this either
 Bismarck.Llewelyn
Online
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Llewelyn
Posts: 1029
By Bismarck.Llewelyn 2013-11-27 05:05:37
Link | Quote | Reply
 
It's 3 AM and I'm bored. :/
 Bismarck.Ihina
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Ihina
Posts: 3187
By Bismarck.Ihina 2013-11-27 11:28:13
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I usually sleep at 3am.
 Odin.Jassik
VIP
Offline
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
user: Jassik
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-27 11:30:40
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Keep in mind, too, that Kurma has somewhat significantly lower accuracy than Tojil.
 Fenrir.Motenten
VIP
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Motenten
Posts: 764
By Fenrir.Motenten 2013-11-27 12:25:36
Link | Quote | Reply
 
@Llewelyn

Given the sample size, margin of error puts your evasion rate between 23% and 29%. That puts Kurma's accuracy between 723 and 735, and a melee needing between 683 and 695 evasion to get off of the evasion floor.

Also, a slight correction on the Blind II conclusion: Mnk is between 50 and 62 evasion short of Blind II having any effect (remembering that it caps at -30 accuracy) in the higher evasion set, and between 52 and 74 evasion short in the lower evasion set.
 Bismarck.Llewelyn
Online
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Llewelyn
Posts: 1029
By Bismarck.Llewelyn 2013-11-27 20:02:24
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Aren't my numbers correct?

731 total eva
23%-29% evasion rate unblinded
38%-44% evasion rate blinded

Lower your evasion enough to hit 21% evasion rate for Blind to start having an effect (17%-23%, or 34-46 evasion)

731 minus 34-46

685-697 evasion needed for Blind II to have an effect

MNK TP set 1 = 593 evasion

685-697 minus 593 = 92 - 104 (98 being the median I used in my conclusion above) evasion needed for Blind II to have an effect.


MNK TP set 2 = 605 evasion

685-697 minus 605 = 80-92 (86 being the median I used in my conclusion above) evasion needed for Blind II to have an effect.

Just to be clear, I didn't and still don't care if Blind is raising your evasion rate %, I'd just like to know if I made a mistake somewhere so I don't do it again in the future.
 Fenrir.Motenten
VIP
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Motenten
Posts: 764
By Fenrir.Motenten 2013-11-27 20:55:51
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Maximum evasion is 80% (ie: min acc = 20%). Minimum evasion is 5% (ie: max acc = 95%). So if you're at 26% evasion, you're 21% (42 evasion) over the minimum. Since you had 731, 731-42 = 689. That equates to the point where the mob has a 95% hit rate on you.

Likewise, 25% evasion would correspond to a 75% hit rate, which is where evasion and accuracy are equal. You're only 1% evasion over that, so Kurma's accuracy would be ~729.

Since 689 evasion would be the point where the mob hits the acc cap, Adding Blind II (-30 acc) would drop the target number to 659. Add 2 to that for it to start actually affecting the mob's hit rate.
 Bismarck.Llewelyn
Online
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Llewelyn
Posts: 1029
By Bismarck.Llewelyn 2013-11-27 21:12:06
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Oh, derp. I see what I did. I got minimum evasion and max evasion mixed up. <.< First time measuring evasion; not used to working "backwards" from accuracy. D:
 Siren.Stunx
Offline
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
user: Bungie
Posts: 903
By Siren.Stunx 2013-11-27 21:22:53
Link | Quote | Reply
 
speaking of derp, mr derp doesnt have anything to say anymore?
 Lye
Offline
Posts: 1721
By Lye 2013-11-28 12:32:55
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Who was that blessed soul that coined the phrase "paper-maths" in reference to parses not reflecting "real" ffxi?
Offline
Server: Excalibur
Game: FFXIV
user: Creaucent
Posts: 751
By Creaucent Alazrin 2013-11-28 12:45:08
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Siren.Stunx said: »
speaking of derp, mr derp doesnt have anything to say anymore?

They will probably try and say that parse is wrong.
 Cerberus.Conagh
Offline
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: onagh
Posts: 3187
By Cerberus.Conagh 2013-11-28 13:41:37
Link | Quote | Reply
 
What we need is a Parse with Slow II and Paralyze II (individually) on a monster, and see if it reduces damage taken (ie Kurma etc) while you have 4~6 DD's on it to feed it the required TP to mimic Delve.

This would show whether the TP feed from DD's outweighs the "eye ball" maths that slow and para will make things easier in delve.

I also like how my Comment about Dia III being useful was "not left much room for argument here" was that an agreement or a negative?,

I might now have to go an do this.
 Cerberus.Spirachub
Offline
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: Spiraboo
Posts: 516
By Cerberus.Spirachub 2013-11-28 13:51:22
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I remember reading that Dia II with 2 light shot has the same potency as dia 3 with 1 light shot ... so unless that is a false piece of information maybe you're better off bringing a dnc in to actually get some proper -def down if there's a vacant slot...

Slow will probably never land on kurma since he's a turtle. Paralyze 1 is already very potent on him so the question is how much more potent is paralyze 2 I guess. Think someone mentioned already but not sure how much help is slow II since these mobs spam TP moves.. maybe more help if you're in a super low man situation where your TP feed to the mob is significantly less than what we're used to.

Also not convinced about the argument about the extended duration being a benefit... There is usually not much problem in reapplying the debuff unless things are going really bad and we are busy supporting.. in which case the rdm is probably gonna be support healing instead of debuffing too. So I think the benefit still lies in the potency difference of tier 2 enfeebles.
[+]
 Odin.Jassik
VIP
Offline
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
user: Jassik
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-28 14:31:50
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Cerberus.Spirachub said: »
I remember reading that Dia II with 2 light shot has the same potency as dia 3 with 1 light shot ... so unless that is a false piece of information maybe you're better off bringing a dnc in to actually get some proper -def down if there's a vacant slot...

Slow will probably never land on kurma since he's a turtle. Paralyze 1 is already very potent on him so the question is how much more potent is paralyze 2 I guess. Think someone mentioned already but not sure how much help is slow II since these mobs spam TP moves.. maybe more help if you're in a super low man situation where your TP feed to the mob is significantly less than what we're used to.

Also not convinced about the argument about the extended duration being a benefit... There is usually not much problem in reapplying the debuff unless things are going really bad and we are busy supporting.. in which case the rdm is probably gonna be support healing instead of debuffing too. So I think the benefit still lies in the potency difference of tier 2 enfeebles.

The main advantage to Dia 3 is that it doesn't require 2 light shots, the main disadvantage is that it must be cast more frequently... unless the RDM went 5/5 on Dia 3 and gimped their group 2 merits. Slow 2 is a lot more potent than slow 1, before iLVL most jobs that even had access to slow 1 couldn't have landed it. It's mostly useless in zerg situations because it's the TP moves that are a problem. Para2 is a pretty decent step up from Para1, but it is fairly unreliable on high level stuff. It's worth casting if you have a RDM with you, but not a good reason to bring one.

The only main advantages I see to having a RDM enfeebler with you is gravity2, Dia3, Refresh2 for GEO's, dedicated haste for SCH's, and the general party support RDM does. It's not a reason to take one over anything else, really, but it's reason to fill an empty slot.
 Cerberus.Conagh
Offline
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: onagh
Posts: 3187
By Cerberus.Conagh 2013-11-28 15:22:39
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ragnarok.Presidentobama said: »
Some rdms mention gravity 2. I am confused on this. When I do delve the monster stays 90% of the time in one spot. Gravity is not needed.
Sorry if I sounded blunt about rdms. But mkst ffxi websites they flood the forums crying. Give us cure 5, give us t5, put us on staves. Switch our new one hour and so on. Its the rdm community acting like crybabies that overall gives the impression the job is not worth much.

Other jobs may have a complaint every so often. But its not every update for everything rdm didnt get other jo s did. I do know a few good rdms. They won't write in forums like this but show merit on the battlefield.

Rdm babies go pray in heavenly tower.

Is this part about Gravity a joke? Or does Grav 2 not have the additional "minus evasion"?
 Odin.Jassik
VIP
Offline
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
user: Jassik
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-28 15:27:28
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Cerberus.Conagh said: »
Is this part about Gravity a joke? Or does Grav 2 not have the additional "minus evasion"?

Gravity 2 has -40 Evasion. Nobody casts it for the reduced movement speed anymore, there's nothing worth kiting that you can. It was surprisingly helpful before iLVL. The effect was often enough to bring DD's from ~90% acc to 95% cap depending on the target and other debuffs. I doubt it's as useful now unless your DD's are in the loop and able to make gear/food changes accordingly, but I'll take any acc boost, even a small one.
[+]
Log in to post.