Which One To Make First? Apoc Or Rag?

Currently saving up the gil for my first relic. It takes me some time to save up money, but I reckon I could have enough within a few months by doing dyna and other things when possible. Was originally going to make a Ragnarok, but I am not sure now. Apocalypse is very useful as well.

So if you was a Dark Knight with no relics, which one would you make first?

Either works; They're both great weapons.

Redemption 99! w

I'd go with Rag. Not only because of Resolution, but also because Rag can be worn by WAR (and PLD, but yeeeeah) as well, meaning you could enjoy it as WAR (not just DRK) in zerg scenarios.

If you're DRK onry then that last point is irrelevant. Damage wise though, if you like to do big chunks of damage to your enemies, Rag will beat Apoc.

I agree. Any drk with a GS can spam reso and do a fine job. The thing is they will never know the joys of apoc.

I already have a Fulgurante OAT GS and its a beast. I love scythes, but I love damage as well. Of course I will get both at some point, but I was wondering which would be better for endgame stuff like VW, Neo Nyzul etc.

PS. Already have a Redemption and love it. I use it in VW for scythe procs, because I dont want to use Twilight ; ;

I think my Fulgurante is so much better then my Redemption, that I would love to have a GS and a Scythe that are awesome. Fulgurante is a really good weapon til Ragnarok, but Ragnarok is "probably" (Just so people dont argue) the best pure DD weapon

I went Apoc first and never regretted doing so.
Resolution was up on the test server and it really did'nt change my mind.
It does'nt shine as much unless you can 99 it, however :<
It's a very nice tool to have, and in stuff like Meeble, NNI in situations where there's no healer around, as long as you have haste + march or brava, you're good to go on a little solo-adventure more or less no matter what you fight.

Iff you a career drk Apoc def 1st, it changes the way you play drk by alot.
From MP sponse to all the <3 you can handle from mages.

Tho Sheelay def has a point iff you like the bring your war to EG aswel then you best go with rag.

But in the end you want them both^^

I do have WAR that I accidentally leveled up by falling asleep in Abyssea, so its a job I have on 99 but I wont use at all.

I will love to have them both but Im not the kinda player who earns enough to make a relic a month, also I may be getting a new (RL) job soon so may not be able to play as much.

Apoc is sounding more appealing to me, always loved that big chunk of gold.

Which is cheaper to make? And how much gil you think I should have before I start buying all the bills?

Apoc is probably cheaper... but that's based off of currency prices on my own server.

Yea, generally whiteshells are cheapest. Bronze and Bynes are fluctuating a lot, they seem to go up and down depending. Bronze seems to be down to 6.4-6.5k, while Bynes are 6.6-6.7 at the moment. Thats just based off how much I could sell in the last month. Whiteshells are in much higher demand it seems on Cerb.

I made both. I've equipped my apocalypse while engaged exactly once-for the trials from 75-95. The real answer will depend on what content you do and how serious you are, but a player trying to give their best performance will always be better off with Ragnarok.

http://www.ffxiah.com/relics/calculator Here you can easily calculate what it will cost you on your server. GL

I am in the same boat as you, working on my first relic and debating between rag or apoc.

Since the final stage of apoc is shells instead of silver's, I think I figured out that apoc would be 7-10 mil cheaper to make than rag depending on if you get a loan or not (taking into account current currency values on Bismarck).

As for when to start in investing currency, I think that is personal preference. The most logical route would be to wait until you have enough currency to complete the weapon, at least by the time all the waiting periods are done.

Personally, my goal is to start investing once I have 50% of the currency. I'm the kind of person that likes to see the physical progress on the weapon, and not just numbers on paper.

I think the "if you like doing damage make rag" is *** ignorant. I keep seeing it pop up and it makes my *** pucker. I recognize that Ragnarok is a beast (I own both) but apoc isn't a *** nerf bat, or a sockem bopper either. There is a time and a place for both and having had both for a while now I can still say I'm easily wearing my apoc far more frequently than my rag.

Anytime you have 2 marches from a decent brd or (currently, until nerf) embrava along with vanilla haste (if you have a mage you should have haste) with last resort up your drk only needs ~13 equipment haste to cap. Apoc's aftermath pushes that number down to ~3.
Last resort down still has you with increased stats (being able to take 10% equip haste off in favor of additional stats and double attack).
Top that off with the fact that each catastrophe is topping off your HP, even with SE up (undead excluded), is a huge deal. Unless you have a pocket whm set to cure you the second you lose HP it makes a huge difference to your souleater output.
The "lolutility" is another huge boon as well. Ragnarok drks are running around with hybrid/dt legion sets that are going to nerf either their haste,stats,or survivability. Apoc can sidestep the hybrid a good portion of the time due to the life gain on cata. The times that they cant, you can utilise the 10% haste aftermath to facilitate your hybrid gears (like 95% of my aftermath gearsets use phorcys boots already for the DA and acc).

Ragnarok is easily the higher output for spike damage and the easier weapon to make good.. but an apoc that is made "great" is no slouch either. I'm ok with a higher white damage output and lower spikes. It's put me at the front of the parse against a myriad assortment of events with ls and pugs alike. (and not the "oh we were all procing and no one knew we were trying" type either).

Anyhow, if i've learned anything from these threads, including ones I've made myself: you made up your mind already subconsciously and made a thread for validation. Make what you like and on the bright side in a fight between ragnarok and apoc you're unlike to be dissapointed, regardless of the outcome.

In the same buffed situations, Rag can still reduce haste gear almost 3/4 of the time and there's a fixed amount of haste you'll get from pieces that are good regardless. The relative gain is almost nonexistant, and you need to keep AM up for it.

Wrong, if you're using a hybrid DT set to avoid slowly dying, then your mages are inadequate. They exist to prevent one-shots, primarily.

I can understand why people like apocalypse, but I can't understand why people try to convince others that it's good.

Make whatever you feel like first. I did Apoc first before resolution came out. Later I made Rag in a month just to shut everyone else up about Reso spams with w/e GS they're using. If you're gonna get Umbral Marrows, upgrade the Apoc first because it benefits from the upgrade more.

If you're worried about a reso nerf and feel your rag is gonna be completely wasted, then yes build a Apoc.

I made a Ragnarok first, long before Resolution was mentioned, and personally never looked back. Mine is 99 though, which makes Reso and ragnarok shine even more than a 99 apoc will.

Prior though, if you have the scythe lovin' goin on, i would say do Apoc. I did Ragnarok for this very reason - I love greatswords. On my previous character, i would swing around an Algol on war and lash out with ground strike.

Career DRK really depends on how you see yourself playing DRK as a career job. DD zerg in EG will most likely result in the need/use of Ragnarok (dat acc+40 at 99 is wicked) combined with increased Crit rate/OD 2.5x Damage will outshine Catastrophe/Entropy every time.

On the other hand, i've seen a DRK solo melee Apademak for his horns using an Apoc (with whm support, of course) as well as some isgebind hearts for me. Basically it comes down to how you wanna utilize your gil/drk career/weapon/experience.

Sorry for the vague post, but in your case, since you seem to already be leaning towards apoc, make an apoc.

10% haste is not non-existant, especially at the higher end of the spectrum. Rag being in 16% haste sets 71% of the time is not the same as apoc only needing 3% 71% of the time. The "good gear that still has haste" would be bale head leaving you STILL 10% haste ahead even after wasting 3 haste. In the mid-buff situations you still have apoc losing gear while rag is only hitting equip haste cap.


I *** explained why like a sentence later.... you can't take what i say out of context and then say "wrong". Apoc doesn't have the same concerns as to haste problems that rag does.

Anyhow: I can see why people like ragnarok. it's easy to use. I just don't get why you would try your hardest to not let someone else present an opinion.

Ragnarok unless all you want to do is solo. The healing from Cata isn't as amazing as it sounds unless your healers have no reaction time and don't know how to cureskin. Hybrid DT sets? Ragnarok still does more damage. Apoc barely gains much of anything from it's aftermath since most of the gear you use in aftermath still has haste on it.

Yet, none of this changes which does more damage. Ragnarok still wins in situations designed to try to favor apocalypse as much as possible.

With LR up and capped magic haste, rag only needs 12% haste. 25% DB, 43.3% magic leaves a remaining 11.7%. If for some reason you're scared of SEs rounding, put on 13% and you're way more than set. You shouldn't be doing anything that needs hybrid DT without capped haste, so you're good to cap with only phos belt+1 and phorcys dirs in hybrid build.

The cures are not produced in a manner conducive to replacing a mage, most of the time you'll just be LOWERING your mages MP by lowering the amount their cure goes for and lowering the return from their AF3 legs. The relevance only applies to situations like NNI(mage might not be nearby), solo, or if you have extremely inattentive mages.

It's not trying not to let someone present an opinion, it's arguing a point for the sake of knowledge. You're spreading something I consider blatantly wrong, you'll either educate me or I'll educate everyone else. Nothing else to it.

tl;dr:

Ragnarok for better damage, Apocalypse for better soloing/low man 75-cap stuff. Ideally you'll have both someday.

You already have an OAT GS, so unless you're trying to win Legion parses, you're going to be fine.

From the viewpoint of someone, who does most of his stuff trioboxing a BRD and WHM mule:
If I had to pick one relic weapon, which I'd like to keep, it would be Apoc.

The Haste aftermath nowadays is not as big as it probably was back in the day (my relics are "new generation", so I dont have personal experience using them at 75 cap), however it still allows you to substitute Haste gear for x-attack/stats gear. Some Salvage runs do not allow you to fully equip yourself right at the start and so the Aftermath really shines there.

Do not forget that you are wielding a 167 base dmg weapon, able to 5-hit easily with /sam, +40% Cata dmg and a 20% proc rate on ODD. Its far, very far from bad dmg. You dont zerk everything with a MS WAR. Ragnarok and Resolution are better at dealing damage, especially in full buffed situations, no question.

(insert uninteresting rant here:)
DMG wise if it interests you for whatever reason, you'll still win 95% of VW parses or any other non 2HR zerk with your apoc, as long as you keep spamming your marcos, as apparently its hard for people to
A: understand how the trigger system in VW works (lets change our weapon and do a "Weapon 1" trigger, mob is capped, noone cares, lets TRIGGER IT ***) and
B: other people can't hit their macros, they are unable to do it quick, I don't know why, maybe Tenosynovitis. (google it)
(/end of uninteresting rant)

However the bread&butter of apoc is the drain effect, at least for me. Being able to cure yourself w/o having to rely on the WHM, who is probably just casting RR in a dire situation (you know what i mean...), is awesome.
I've been doing ZRII now for a few days, since i finished BRII and the gears from Floor 5 upwards hit like trucks, once i get a full link (3-4 single gears and maybe a chariot,my BRD/ WHM cant sleep them, I know I know impatient puller here) even with Apoc and WHM cures it can get very ugly.

Of course this is just one situation, but it should show you that if things go wrong, I'd much rather wield a drain weapon, which allows you to control the situation than one dealing more dmg, but is useless as youre eating dirt. We did the new Meeble bosses recently with WHM BRD SCH THF DRK DRK. A setup which allows you to use Ragnarok just fine, however I still used Apoc, as I wanted to observe the fight, give commands, learn about the mobs etc.

Whatever you decide to do in the end, dont forget that youre not wielding a Gungnir (feel the hate!), but a utility weapon, which for me at least is the best weapon I ever owned in my FF career.

I conceded at the opening of my statements that i Ragnarok has a greater output but this is where I feel you're showing your true colors. It's like saying "i'd kick a liberator out of bed because it falls behind rag 2%".

Whatever though. If i continue you're going to turn it into a witch hunt for apoc fanboyism even though i own *** both.

We use apoc drk for weapon and first JA off first lamp on neo salvage and it shits all over the other "mp conservation" strats we had. healer was borderline afk til second floor even with fly/wamoura paths.

You're missing the point. If a relic is a big deal to someone, they should probably have all available information. Ragnarok will provide a superior performance in any situation, the way things are atm.

In no way did I say that people shouldn't make apocalypse. I said that Ragnarok is a more practical weapon for every situation. If you're okay with accepting a minor loss in performance because you like the aesthetic, then that's perfectly OK. From the looks of it, the OP is going to do that.

(I own both, too.)

I wouldn't drop a liberator if it magically appeared on my character. I'd play with it on occasion. That's not really relevant though, I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone spend 450m on one.

This

Thanks for all the input. It makes my decision even harder. In no way have I leaned towards either weapon, they are both excellent in different ways. I would appreciate if this thread was kept civil though, no need to argue and get upset because someone has a differing opinion to you.

Thanks a lot for that Relic Calculator. I will be using that shortly :)

I am torn 50/50 on which one to make. On one hand, I could make an Apoc, making things like Meebles and Neo Nyzul (Something I have yet to get into, and really need too) much easier. However Ragnarok would help me out in high buff situations like VW. However there ain't really any other places I could think of using my Ragnarok over an Apoc. In VW, i do respectful damage already with my Fulgurante, pulling hate off empyrean/relic DDs who may not be bashing their weapon skill macro as much as they should. I can also see that having an Apoc would be very helpful in those certain VW fights where staggers are not coming as fast as they should, and your mage is down.

At this rate I will just pull my corsair coin out and decide that way :p If only we could have polls on this website, it would be interesting to see how that would turn out.