Iga Hakama V Koga Hakama

That is my current set.
From reading this forum, I assume these are the upgrades to look for:
Kannagi
Patentia Sash
Thaumas Coat
Portus Collar
Tenryu Tekko +1
Not gonna bother with Tenryu feet.

Where did you get this idea?

Well of course Thaumas isn't JUST haste, but it's the major selling point, especially when it makes relic legs plus 2 more effective (if I understand correctly?) and you say Thaumas is king over the other 2

Are you just asking if 4% haste is > 5 dual wield if you'll be at either 18% haste (with mustela) or 14% haste (ninja chainmail)?

Edited a bunch of times, but what Nightfyre said

QA+3%
TA+3%
DA+3%

Do I really need to explain?

Don't see how you figure it makes relic legs +2 more effective.

EDIT: Porthos is a sidegrade to AF+1 if the attack is relevant.

Obviously not?

Didn't say they did, it just seemed that people implied it in threads I read, something to do with the gear set capping haste with Thaumas body making you able to equip better gear elsewhere or w/e

To answer your original question more clearly -

I would recommend Mustela if you don't have Thaumas, AF1/Porthos isn't capping your accuracy, Mustela is capping your accuracy and you're still benefiting from the haste. If you don't need the haste then Iga+2 would be better. If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will yell at me.

lol

40 haste gear+spell
52 DW

vs

33 haste gear+spell
57 DW

If you had 100 Delay, 40 haste 52 DW gives a new delay of 28.8, 33 haste 57 DW gives 28.81 delay. As you can see the Twilight belt actually attacks faster, but we didnt account for the fact that haste is actually worth slightly less than advertised, so they will end up being the same speed, with a slight edge to Twilight if anything. The 5 STP will kept the hits to 100 TP the same, and one belt has 8 attack and the other has 2 DA, so basically what you're saying is that 8 attack is better than 2 DA, which is just sort of stupid.

You're talking about major selling points and somehow neglecting the fact that NIN's years-old DW+5 bodies are far and away superior to a mere haste+4 in low buff situations (ie the ones where NIN is remotely relevant). So evidently it does need to be explained despite you jumping in at a point where we're talking about DW+5 waists beating haste+7 waists.

I wouldn't say that Thaumas Coat really favored any particular set noticeably. It was an obvious candidate for body wear at the time since we'd just dropped into 21% haste TP sets not long before that, but even non-Koga sets could make adjustments to accomodate it (Byakko's or Thaumas legs with Thaumas feet, for instance). With Patentia Sash, that's even less relevant.

This only holds true if you assume that delay is floored between calculations. I know of no evidence to substantiate this claim and can offer indirect support to the contrary in that there appear to be no truncations in between haste and fast cast reductions in spell recast, only the truncation of the fast cast value itself. If this is the case, the DW set is in fact marginally faster.

You'll find that this is generally not the case if you include WS return. A brief check at some of the more common TP returns for Blade: Hi shows that no hits landed, 1 main hit landed, 1 main + 1 additional, 2 main hits, and 2 main + 1 additional all favor Patentia by 1 hit to WS. Didn't bother checking most other returns, did come across a couple where they were equal and I'm sure I would have found more but most of the time Patentia drops you 1 hit to WS. Whether or not you overflow is an entirely different matter.

100 * .6 = 60
60 * .48 = 28.8

Where's the flooring?


The 5 STP on top of the DW will save you 1 attack round between WS's as often as the 2 DA on Twilight belt. Better?

2 DA is still better than 8 ATT, and I've shown that the delays are going to be the same given someone casts haste on you. That belt is not better, and it certainly doesn't deserve an inventory slot. At the absolute best it's only gaining you 1% damage, and thats only when you don't have haste, which should be never.

I assumed you were using proper /1024 fractions of haste. My bad...? The difference with proper calculations is very slim, possibly beyond the game engine's level of precision, but to say that the Twilight set has lower base delay is incorrect with the current understanding of delay reduction mechanics.

It's an inaccurate statement, so no.

Don't be so sure about that. Ratio capped, of course, but otherwise you'll find them pretty comparable and the answer is not universally clear-cut. NIN's base attack is still pretty low.

I will agree that the belt is not a significant upgrade in the grand scheme of things and not mentioning this previously may be an error of omission on my part, but you're still undervaluing it by stating that these gains only exist if you're not getting haste. Your value is actually more appropriate to gains with haste.

How would patentia fair against twilight belt with the 10stp from Kakka: Ichi?

I was under the impression you would be using Kakka: Ichi in any situation, so it might have already been calculated. D:

Hmmm would like some clarification on this actually if possible. Is Kakka: ichi accounted for in your calculations Nightfyre?

Full disclosure, I haven't used NIN for anything other than AFKprocing in a VW alliance in so long (months before my break even) that I forgot the spell existed. Will review and revise accordingly.

EDIT: And Odin v1, but I'm not going to bother with Kakka for that since he uses dispel so often.

Alright, Kakka changes the results significantly if you assume only Brutal Earring for STP on WS. Six cases exhibit a difference in hits to WS (0 main + 1 offhand, 0 + 2, 1 + 1, 1 + 2, 2 + 1, 2 + 2).

So my assertion regarding WS frequency was incorrect. Apologies for the error. Patentia still has slightly higher (~3%) WS frequency if we take the delay difference at face value. Twilight should actually fall slightly further behind my revised numbers than I'm currently estimating since critrate is applied in whole-number increments, but I don't really want to set up a proper simulation to capture the effect on each.

I should note that this result doesn't change my thoughts regarding Patentia - I went back and double checked my original figures, and they do hold up. The original rounds/WS figures above were obtained seperately. I can only assume that I remembered Kakka's existence at the time I originally did the comparison.

Great information from ppl. Thank you.

So I think it's safe to say, you won't be nubing it up if you stick with your Twilight Belt on your NIN until you get a Patentia, so the whole this is better than that arguement is kinda moot when you consider what gear you have access to. Glad to know patentia is epeen though.. that's fine. Good to know.

I came to this thread because I was under the assumption that the DW and Haste on legs weren't much of a competition, but seeing the actual math, it's good to know that I never got rid of those legs 4 years ago when I got them. I just recently found the Koga Chainmail and thought I'd upgrade it and wear that along with my legs cuz I got tired of looking at Ninja CHainmail.....

.... but now hearing the math :/ I'm stuck w/the stupid Ninja Chainmail and its boring looks.. if I want to be e-Peen, and just townie my Koga+2.

Anyway, on to Kannagi.

Good luck on getting your Kannagi!

Personally I don't had the chance to put my hands on a Twilight Belt. But I managed to get the Nusku's Sash a few days ago. My gear is not top notch but in my situation Nusku's > Twilight.
Nusku's takes some time to get pop items but NM was not that hard with 4 ppl.
That combined with those legs, I saw a mathematical reduction in delay.
Now need to verify it ingame :)

EDIT : and also stuck on Ninja Chainmail

Very cool. You know I thought about going for that sash? Then, I went to go see how much Patentia Sash costs on Asura and its at 4.5mil average. Which, ... I suppose I can just stop being lazy and go get the money to buy it heh.

I looked up how to find the -1 Koga Hakama and apparently its in Dyna-Taz, along with the -1 Koga Chainmail and a few other choice pieces of gear I'm looking for, so...... I'm going to get real aquainted with Dyna-Taz very soon..... and stop hunting for -1 Assassin Armlets in Bubu. :/ 2 weeks worth of farming and still... nada

Oh, plus the hands drop in Taz along w/the -1... I think it was... hehe... I really would like to get my hands on the hands.

On a side note, I hunted for Gangly Gean for 2 and a half hours and he didn't show up trying to Erimaki. Then all of a sudden he poofs and I poke him with Full Swing and bam... Iga Erimaki! I had read from other ppl on different places/forums that the neck piece was a pain to get.

Course..... I suppose I need to go get that other neck piece that homeboy was talking about in a few posts before...... so much to do....

Twilight belt is easy to obtain. I really can't make that any clearer.

When looking at Relic+2 items, check the price of the Forgotten item. In some cases (Particularly, Hands/Legs/Feet), you'll find that buying 20 Forgotten items is cheaper than turning in the item + item-1 + Currency + Required Synthesis item.

For example, on Odin (Koga Hakama):
40k (Light Steel Sheet) + 20x7k (20 Byne Bills) = 180k (Not including the cost that could have gone to farming a zone where obtaining other Relic-1 pieces is cheaper)

180k/20 = 9k

That means if you find 20 Forgotten Journey pieces for 9k or less, you're paying the same or less using the 50x Journey method rather than the Relic-1 method.

Don't forget opportunity cost! Turning in 50 journeys is faster and seamless if you can find them in a large bunch!

And you don't waste a potential good dynamis run instead of shitty dyna-tav.