[Dev] RDM & Hastega (lol...)

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[Dev] RDM & Hastega (lol...)
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2011-11-30 17:58:22
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11-30-2011 05:26 PM
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Rukkirii
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Red mage was designed to be proficient in the ways of enfeebling magic and single-target/self enhancements. Magic spells were split so that red mages focused on single-target magic, while white mages excelled in AoE magic.

In regards to Haste specifically, the stats surrounding the spell were created for a single target in mind, so for balance reasons we have no plans to make it possible to turn it into an AoE spell.

Due to this, we do not have plans of allowing red mage spells to simply be changed into AoE spells.

Really rdm's? lol... I know SMN gets it but I'm okay with that. Really am not okay with mage jobs having it outside of monsters though.

It was designed with single target in mind so it was able to reach the full potential.

Laziness is written all over this, and "It's too hard to keep up a haste cycle :("
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 Asura.Ludoggy
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By Asura.Ludoggy 2011-11-30 18:00:14
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Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2011-11-30 18:00:33
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Just... giving RDM hastega in my opinion won't make them any stronger. If you're the designated haster for that party you should be keeping it up anyways, so having the spell won't increase productivity at all... unless you just flat out don't keep your haste cycles up.
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 Leviathan.Draugo
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2011-11-30 18:00:57
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BRD has that
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By mortontony1 2011-11-30 18:02:02
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What if RDM got hastega but the haste effect was only half or 1/3 as strong or something?
 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2011-11-30 18:03:23
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mortontony1 said: »
What if RDM got hastega but the haste effect was only half or 1/3 as strong or something?
lol

A RDM should be keeping it up on the party, that's full haste by doing the task given to you and doing your work. By being lazy and reducing the haste % is not good at all, it's worse and only says your that much lazier that you wouldn't give your party everything you have.

I don't see a nerf to support it good at all, it really isn't hard to keep a cycle up you just have to be someone who can take the task and do your work.
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 Leviathan.Draugo
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2011-11-30 18:03:30
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Hastega that was more potent when landing on fewer bodies would be cool. But only if it stacks with Haste. Cuz it takes time to proc
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 Shiva.Msthief
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By Shiva.Msthief 2011-11-30 18:04:34
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mortontony1 said: »
What if RDM got hastega but the haste effect was only half or 1/3 as strong or something?

Then everyone would want "real" hastes.
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2011-11-30 18:05:42
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Shiva.Msthief said: »
mortontony1 said: »
What if RDM got hastega but the haste effect was only half or 1/3 as strong or something?

Then everyone would want "real" hastes.
And then there would be issues that hastega overwrites a real haste and people start flipping out lolololol
 Leviathan.Draugo
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2011-11-30 18:05:59
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Was going to post a crude pun but chose not to.
 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2011-11-30 18:06:54
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I just don't know, RDM already doesn't have much to do right? (depending on what type of RDM you are)... so getting a spell that makes it 6 times worse is just...

/confused
 Phoenix.Cathaldus
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By Phoenix.Cathaldus 2011-11-30 18:07:19
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I actually read the thread. It was more to do with the fact Cycles are not fun, productive or anything to which I agree.

That's all I'll say on the subject, I know where this thread will go.
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 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-11-30 18:10:41
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Hastega would be a time saver, give you time to do a few other things. I'd take it if it was given but that'd be one of the last things I would ask for since it wouldn't do anything to help the job.
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 Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2011-11-30 18:18:37
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Need to put a muzzle on the morons asking stupid *** questions like this.
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 Asura.Baroma
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By Asura.Baroma 2011-12-01 02:13:24
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Im no RDM but i can see how unproductive a rdm would feel if they had to keep up with the cycle. I thought enfeebling enemies is what makes RDM, not hasting everything (constantly). thats just my 2 cents.
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 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2011-12-01 02:17:04
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It's stupid to limit something like this when it would improve people's game experience and not unbalance anything. They should just let all enhancing magic stack with Accession and call it a day.
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 Valefor.Neokenesis
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By Valefor.Neokenesis 2011-12-01 02:19:13
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Rdm doesn't need hastega. I think its wonderful that a rdm can give a player a 5min+ haste with the right gear. It has really made cycling easier.
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 Bismarck.Ruizutatakau
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By Bismarck.Ruizutatakau 2011-12-01 02:26:06
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Asura.Ludoggy said: »
Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5 Cure 5
Capped Cure Potency Capped Cure Potency Capped Cure Potency Capped Cure Potency Capped Cure Potency Capped Cure Potency
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 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2011-12-01 02:26:48
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SE don't care about the player's experience. It is about following their design relentlessly.

Buffing should never be a significant component of the playtime of a job, else it becomes extremely tedious.
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 Cerberus.Vaness
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By Cerberus.Vaness 2011-12-01 02:28:21
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I agree with that decision.Any RDM before abyssea could keep a haste + refresh cycle WHILE enfeebling and support curing/-nas.I personally did it countless times and it's what I liked about RDM, always busy, never getting bored.

I personally don't understand that urge for people to have everything AoE, the new abyssea RDMs deffinitly need some 2005 training.
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 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2011-12-01 02:29:41
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Bahamut.Raenryong said: »
SE don't care about the player's experience. It is about following their design relentlessly.

Buffing should never be a significant component of the playtime of a job, else it becomes extremely tedious.

Pretty much this. I'd like to hear a logical argument against Hastega (or Accession -> Haste), if one exists.
 Sylph.Liltrouble
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By Sylph.Liltrouble 2011-12-01 02:44:55
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Only a full-time support Rdm would enjoy the benefits of an AoE haste spell. Real Rdm's wouldn't see the use for it.
 Leviathan.Hohenheim
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By Leviathan.Hohenheim 2011-12-01 03:10:30
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haste II and moar fact cast prz!
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2011-12-01 03:11:33
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Leviathan.Hohenheim said: »
haste II and moar fact cast prz!
Won't ever happen!

If it did I'd bet 3 gil that WHM gets it :X

Then again, SE would probably give it to RDM anyways.
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 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2011-12-01 03:12:00
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At risk of posting something HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE, I'm going to summarise what I feel are the problems with RDM at the moment and how to fix them (this may not be possible under the current system but regardless);

RDM's main problem is an identity crisis. It is supposed to be a jack of all trades, but SCH competes with it on this role. It is supposed to be a major enfeebler, but immunities and the small increase of tier1 enfeebles vs tier2 enfeebles render this largely obsolete.

Therefore, what I would propose is this:

Stop making RDM a jack of all trades. Turn it into a support mage and allow it to grow into an entirely new role.

Change #1, global across all jobs with access to the spell: allow Haste/Refresh to be maintained persistently for some upkeep of MP (slightly higher than now to accommodate for the casting MP to maintain it previously). Shift gameplay away from maintaining basic buffs and towards activity.

Change #2: turn RDM into a proper melee/mage hybrid. I have never been an advocate of melee RDM while playing since the implementation is entirely halfassed; RDM cannot be a high power DD due to balance reasons, so it meleeing must perform some unique role.

How to do this? There may be balance problems associated with it but:

Two stances. For lack of better terms, Melee Support and Mage Support. Melee Support can increase the effectiveness of buffs applied in tandem with damage and other effects (as well as perhaps apply new ones depending on what you do such as a somewhat weak but stacking Stoneskin and such?) and Mage Support can increase the effectiveness of debuffs applied, in tandem with damage and other effects (eg: increase potency of Slow in tandem with earth elemental damage inflicted).

This would allow RDM a more dynamic role and give it a proper place in a fight (imagine if you could slightly increase Haste potency etc)! Basically, make RDM a true support class able to adjust to a given situation and shift the gameplay away from buffing and more towards pro-activity.

Change #3: finally, to address RDM's curing issue while keeping the flavour of the class intact, give them access to a JA with a low recast (~30s?) named Doublecast. Cast two spells at once for 2x (or more) the MP cost of a single cast. This allows RDM the ability to cure in a pinch while remaining well below the level of WHM in terms of healing (note I am proposing this knowing that CureIV's potency is going to be increased).

Problems: I know this is intruding on DNC a little bit, since they are supposed to be the ones who turn melee damage into healing/debuffing. Simply amplify DNC and allow them to provide different kinds of debuffs (as they do) and remove the shared Waltz cooldowns FFS. Finally, perhaps add something like a buff which you place on one person who cannot be yourself where they heal a certain (low - not to the point where you can replace a main healer but just to provide supplementary healing) % of the damage you deal, and only allow one DNC's buff to be active on a single person at any given time.

SCH may need some buffing to compensate for this but this is easily handled via strategems.

I've probably just been playing too many other games lately, but I feel FFXI's biggest problem is that it tries to homogenise its classes too much, which is to say a healer is a healer, a DD is a DD etc. If you make every class offer something different, you end up with better synergised gameplay and not just "I want a DD? Okay, WAR/MNK it is".

The proc system is an attempt to increase class diversity but it's one which inflicts inconvenience on the player. I think allowing each job to have a more unique flavor and their own niche is best overall.

But I could be dumb :)

I dunno why I typed all of this.
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 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-12-01 03:18:03
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Valefor.Neokenesis said: »
Rdm doesn't need hastega. I think its wonderful that a rdm can give a player a 5min+ haste with the right gear. It has really made cycling easier.
What's sad is, by the time I finished my +2 set I never really got to test it out. I haven't done a full buff cycle since my dyna shell crashed and burned.

Hasting 5 or more if I had to do outside pt and refreshing 6, silence on all mages, particularly all those damned bst pets, para, slow, Dia on most mobs as soon as they were called, healing, sleeping... I have to say that the thing that sucked the most about being rdm was when I had to main heal or be the sole buffer for a pt. Protect and shell... Cost me a full mp pool just to put those up on 6. The times when yarnball was broken... 2.5 hours of this twice a week though either makes you insane or a pretty good rdm.

Anyway... I have to admit that hastega would have been nice for that, though you have to account for the fact that it'd probably only be a 10' aoe and no one will ever stay still for it when you cast...
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 Fairy.Ghaleon
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By Fairy.Ghaleon 2011-12-01 03:18:47
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i actually like your views for change number 2. :o
 Cerberus.Vaness
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By Cerberus.Vaness 2011-12-01 03:21:01
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Bahamut.Raenryong said: »
Wall of text
I don't think what you post was retard, you made very good point.

Though I have to say that reading those melee-RDM thread on the official forum almost made me an anti-RDM melee.

They deffinitly need to make some major change about RDM enfeeblings because at this very moment, pretty much anything can slow or paralyze decently.Also everything(or almost), seems to be immune to gravity/bind D: If they weren't, once aggain a whm, a blm or a sch could do the enfeebler job :(

I think on the healer side, the recent easy 50% cure potency being Avalaible on RDM is a god sent.

Didn't SE said they would change the way MND/Healing magic skill would affect Cure?Or it's just my Imagination.
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-12-01 03:21:05
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Bahamut.Raenryong said: »
I dunno why I typed all of this.
Cause you want a reason to wear those pants again?
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 Cerberus.Vaness
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By Cerberus.Vaness 2011-12-01 03:23:21
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Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
Bahamut.Raenryong said: »
I dunno why I typed all of this.
Cause you want a reason to wear those pants again?
RDM panties :3
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