Better TP Set For THF

Except subtle blow is far more 'situational' than getting 5 dex to get you .5% crit rate.

Will 5 subtle blow even prevent 1 WS on a mob you kill trash mobs you can nearly 1 shot? (hint: this is like asking if 5STP will knock off a hit to WS. Sometimes yes, sometimes no and varies wildly) Is it a mob with TP moves we even give a ***about? What if your whm has infinite MP because lolAbyssea and just spams C6 on you so you never even bother casting shadows in the 1st place? What if YOU ARENT SOLOING so 5 subtle blow has no friggin impact because there is more than 1 melee feeding TP. what if, what if, what if.

Defensive abilities are IMPOSSIBLE to measure in any tangible way relating to offense because you are introducing a slew of new variables that we cant control and cannot directly compare to damage. Thus, you figure out what the objective damage gains are, then you personally decide if the situation you will be in will benefit from a defensive stat.

Example: Your about to go fight a scary monster that has increased atk speed. You know you will have trouble keeping shadows up, so you decide to be more "defensive" and fight in full evasion gear. It will 'increase' your damage because your not casting as often, and dead people do no damage. You dont come to the forums and tell everyone "HEY! EVA gear>Haste gear for DD!"


It is true that in that situation, eva gear will ALLOW you to do more damage. It is not that eva gear will make you DO more damage

Do you see the difference in that statement? Subtle blow MAY ALLOW you to do more damage SOMETIMES. It doesnt DO more damage.

Love torque DOES more damage. (when not capped blah blah). You keep saying agasaya will allow you to do more damage. You have not once made the argument that it does more damage (except when acc/dex capped blah blah) because it doesnt.

Agasaya does less damage than love (cap/acc/dex/blah). Period. Agasaya has 'other' benefits that may be more valuable than direct damage boosts sometimes. It doesnt DO more damage.

which is why I called it psuedo-offensive

This sort've, but no it usually has an impact on TP feed.

My setup, Kila/Triplus as /NIN with Suppa and Raider's rang, is 4.5tp /hit. +5STP from Rajas is 4.7. So enemy TP gains is 7.7/hit. Rounded up, that's 13 hits until the enemy can TP. After the 5SB is applied, that's 7.3. Now it needs a 14th hit to reach 100 TP. It won't always apply, no. Though most use Rajas, and SB sports increasing returns.


Moot point. If we're in Abyssea accuracy, and dDEX are capped, rendering Love useless.



In this situation you'll be able to acknowledge and judge yourself whether or not SB will help at all, if even any. If not, and if you actually are getting crit rate from Love, then obviously love wins.

We're not measuring a random variable of defensive gains in relation to your offensive output. We're comparing the fact of

Neither are offering us accuracy (since Love would win if you do need more obviously)
Subtle blow might reduce a hit and increase our DPS a little (variable)
Love might give us .5 crit hit (variable)
Agasaya offers more attack.

So the comparison between the pieces comes down to, will Love give you any at all crit hit rate, or will your SB total (increasing returns etc) reduce enemy TP flow enough to allow you to do damage.

That's the comparison. Two variables differing by equipment setup, and enemy target.

If you're getting a flat zero dDEX rate from Love, obviously Agasaya wins. I'm wondering why you're seeing so much return from .5 Crit rate on average.

Colibri at 75 had 68? 69? AGI. On THF, right now, Hume, in my TP set, I have a grand total of 115 DEX (with Love torque). So I'm in the higher bracket of dDEX on an EP mob that has low AGI comparatively to other enemies that level. So on a level 90+ mob, outside Abyssea, even in VW, your dDEX won't be close to capping in your TP gear. .5 crit rate is optimistic, 0% is likely. Even .5 on its own is pretty weak. I don't even know if .5 Crit rate is applied into your damage until it becomes 1%, so if that's the case, .5 rate is devalued.

Hence, you're relying your "more damage" on a much, much broader variable than "maybe I'm not soloing".


In perfect situations for both pieces, yes Love has a higher raw damage output. .5% Crit rate is laughably low.


No ***. That's why in my first post, I said you are generalizing. Love doesn't always win for TP phase. We know it is not always better, and I never once stated Agasaya will allow you to do more damage, always without exception.

It's also why this argument isn't going to go anywhere, since both rely on variables, and on average offer the same stuff.

Your store TP does not increase the mob's tp gain. Just FYI.

Anyways, this whole argument is 100% pointless because you should just stop being lazy and get a rancor collar anyways. In the 1% of situations where the 10%DT matters, just use aga or love because they both do almost the same thing.

Really? Well, numbers are still 13 and 14hits.



There we go

Except mobs TP randomly at anything over 25% life when over 100 tp (not at 100tp) and only WS at 100TP under 25% life making a piddly 5 rather silly in the big picture. But the effects of subtle blow or lack of are STILL missing the entire point.

So let me get this straight.

Love has more DD stats on it. (more acc, crit rate bonus) both of which you acknowledge to be objectively more powerful than 1atk (when in effect). Yet when I say love still DOES more damage than agasaya (when said stats are in effect) you start blabbing about subtle blow (which you acknowledge has no direct damage capabilities, unless you want to say screw all this, torero>all which you have not yet done, but according to your definition of damage, it is).

So what exactly is your point? That subtle blow is cool beans? I never said subtle blow is bad. I have only said that love torque has more raw damage potential than agasayas. If you auto atk soemthing love will make your dagger stabby more better.

A subtle blow build does not do more damage than a damage build. It has more subtle blow. An eva set has more eva, not more damage. Are these statements in any way untrue? You are converting these non damage stats into damage which requires so many assumptions about any given situation that it cannot be done effectively. You are still comparing apples to oranges. The conversion cannot be done in an objective fashion because it requires you to fill in all variables with fluff to get an actual measurement. You are then taking this fluffy measurement and comparing it against hard damage formula numbers. Does not compute.

No I didn't. I never denied Love is a better piece for RAW damage. I DID state whatever small offensive gains you can get from Agasaya, will quite often, and very likely beat the garbage gains you get from HALF A PERCENTAGE of critical hit rate. That, and Agasaya will ALSO beat Love, when you are getting ZERO crit rate (which is pretty *** likely on anything that matters outside Abyssea). In perfect scenarios, where 1DEX = 1 Crit, Love is leagues ahead. No ***.

I don't think it's that much of a stretch to assume that any extra swings you can dish out in Agasaya, can at the very least, match a measly 0.5% Crit Rate. So outside of needing more accuracy, or getting Crit hit gains with some substance, I would say Agasaya has a small, tiny lead in utility, which is what I said in my OP.

If you don't want to do it, then fine, I don't plan to keep arguing with you. I just seriously can't fathom how you think .5 crit is by any means useful. SB will likely beat that. (Yes, sometimes it won't matter, I know.)

You are not arguing anything about 'beating' the gains of anything. All you have said this entire time is basically: Subtle blow is more important than damage which is an opinion and does not invalidate the facts of the damage stats.

That is an ENTIRELY different point and irrelevant to mine. I have stated time and time again that love is the superior DD piece. That fact is not disproved or discredited because you think subtle blow is more important than raw damage. They are two completely different items. Subtle blow does not change the amount of damage each is capable of. Again. You are comparing apples to oranges.

If you like subtle blow more than raw damage, good for you. Theres nothing wrong with that. But dont try to twist it into some offhand point that it will make you hit things better because it doesnt.


I was never talking about utility. I have been talking damage this entire time. Utility =/= damage. If i say my drg does more damage than my thf, the counter argument is not "well thf has more utility so that makes up for it!". There is not 'couter argument' because it is a fact. Thf utility has NOTHING to do with the fact that drg does more damage than thf. You can 'like' thf better because of its utility. You can have more fun playing thf. That doesnt somehow stop drg from doing more damage.

You have been arguing with me that utility>than damage. I have only been saying that item1 has more damage than item2. You want to talk about utility>damage, be my guest, but have fun trying to compare qualitative utility gains with quantitative damage ones. Apples. Oranges.

Are you confused? You seem to think my saying Agasaya's can have higher offensive gains is me basically sayng, Subtle Blow increases the damage of individual hits and makes them stronger.

No. I hope that's not your angle. It's about kill speed. Everything, including damage, equates into kill speed. I said;

If you are not getting more accuracy from Love torque, or little to no Crit Hit rate, the time saved having to cast and be JA/Spell locked for 3 seconds, will benefit your overall damage (read as kill speed) more than .5 Crit rate.

It doesn't always apply. On average, this situation and circumstance where it does benefit you by increasing your kill speed, occurs more likely than falling into the rare bracket where you receive substantial dDEX gains from Love.

I don't know how to word it any differently. It all comes down to kill speed, call me crazy, but I would think that having to cast less often and being able to swing a few more times, would be greater than .5 crit rate to your overall kill speed. Given, it's only 5%, so it's not like it's a huge deal, but neither is .5 crit rate.

Moving from 5 to 10% SB 10/90 is virtually a 5.8% increase in kill speed when the enemy is TPing at 100% (slightly less above 25% HP obviously). One, increases individual damage of your hits, the other increases overall damage via kill speed being increased slightly. If I've been confusing you by saying "damage" then my bad, but SB contributes to your overall killspeed IF you are adding a hit. I never stated Agasaya will add more damage to your hits than Love, the chances of that are rare. I'm talking about average occurrences and uses between the two, which is why I said you were generalizing. I wasn't saying "you're wrong, SB makes me hit harder".

torero torque go!

This is what im talking about when i say you have to make TONS of assumptions to give any quantitative numbers to utility stats. Where on earth did you get 5 to 10SB=5.8% faster killspeed? How many assumptions did you have to make to get that number in the 1st place? And now you are going to say with ANY degree of certainty that this number can be compared with the solid numbers on the damage for love torque which can be easily measured?

Please write down for me the equations you used to get 5.8% more damage out of subtle blow. Then i will tell you every place you assumed something and that by the time you get 5.8%, you really have nothing of any statistical value because you had to toss in so many other factors that were not actually measured. Or i could be completely wrong and you have now figured out how to compare opinions with numbers and will shock the scientific world by giving us the ability to compare qualitative and quantitative data directly to one another.
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I have nothing against feelings or opinions. Preferences or anything. But you cannot directly compare feelings/opinions/etc with numbers. Agasaya is a great necklace, but when asked how it compares to love, the answer is "love has more damage potential, but if you WANT the subtle blow, go with agasaya". I am not even disagreeing that agasaya is great, but you cant directly compare them in teh way that you are trying to.

THF only gets 15% subtle blow from /nin, 20% with rajas, 25% with agasaya's, agasaya's + rajas + WHM af3+2 boots with auspice is 45% subtle blow, I think agasaya's is worth it on anything with annoying TP moves :D THF feeds sooo much TP it's really annoying ._.

Love torque is superior if you need more acc though, but THF isn't really going to melee much on things that hard, and ziel neck is better for pure acc, so meh. Love torque is also better for pure damage assuming the 5 dex gives you a good amount of crit, but my mithra thf doesn't really have much dex in tp gear :/ 131 as THF/WAR, so would be 136 with love torque.

Same as Haste.

5/95*100 for the increase from SB. I said assuming they TP at 100 (at HP under 25%) meaning, if you had 50 SB, like Haste with increasing returns, 50/50*100 = 100%. You can TP twice as much until it TPs and may have to recast. I said a 5.8% increase in Kill speed, but that's the wrong term. If something TPs at 100% with 50% SB, it would have TP'd twice with 0. Correct? That's casting time + spell cast lock saved for every TP move, allowing you to swing more in that window. There are more variables such as maybe it doesn't use a move that strips shadows, and that TPing randomly above 25% HP devalues it, as does Regain traits. That's why I said on average you'll see higher return from this, than .5 Crit rate.

In regards to higher damage, yes love torque would win if you're getting Crit rate+, in terms of Kill speed, it may or may not win. Why are we arguing?

Edit:


Okay, we can leave it at that. I'm not saying Agasaya makes you do more damage, I'm just saying that I would imagine on average (though varying person to person), you would find more use of it. It was in regards to your "more mileage from Love", not me trying to disagree Love is the more offensive piece.

It is really a stretch to say that 5 subtle blow has a direct relationship with killspeed. I like when you said that "Hey! Evasion does more damage because I'm still alive!".

Most things have a direct relationship with kill speed. How hard you hit and how fast you swing. This doesn't increase how hard you are hitting, but it can increase the amount of times you swing, it's not like you're giving up Haste or TA for it. It's just a measly .5 Crit.

His evasion analogy goes in here. If you need Evasion to survive, obviously this increases your kill speed over dying and wiping. It doesn't increase your damage, which I guess is what he thought I was trying to say.

not really in the mood to read so many wots, but i do advantage love outside. I have my THF built around dex tho, and i melee on 152 dex (mithra+8dex merits+twash+love pretty much). Love torque would be really missed if i remove it. From my parses against the VT stuff on dyna i'm exactly at the final crit stretch.

We have to keep in mind what we are fighting and with what sort of setup.

The value of SB is vastly decreased when you roll with a large group that includes multiple melees and you have multiple healers to keep them all rolling. While THF is particularly inefficient when it comes to TP feed as a result of biases in the damage formulas, but this is moot once you got 5+ whacking it.

Anything that is *particularly* dangerous with TP feed, you're probably relying on ranged damage or hit and run WS. Case in point, you didn't see very many Khimaira done melee burn style but Cerberus was killed all the time that way.

Now i understand rancor collar improves crit hit rate for unstacked evis. however, what about stacked? is love torque gonna come out on top since the 1st hit of evis is guarenteed to crit with SA?

i would think rancor would still come out on top since SA only forces the first hit. the crit rate will apply to the last 4 hits as well.