RDM Enfeeble Skill Vs Magic Acc

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2010-09-08
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RDM Enfeeble skill vs Magic Acc
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 Asura.Moonglow
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By Asura.Moonglow 2009-03-28 23:04:55
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Here is the question for opinions...
Enfeebling Boots with +3 enfeebling skill or Goliard Clogs with 4INT and 2 magic acc?
I'm curious as to what others think which is better... imo.. goliard clogs is my better for the INT MND and acc... but not really sure if +skill is better then the Acc/INT-MND.
Please let me know what you think.
 Asura.Reublucian
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By Asura.Reublucian 2009-03-28 23:09:53
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Clogs sonnnn
 Ragnarok.Holyman
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By Ragnarok.Holyman 2009-03-28 23:22:59
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According to wiki & a lot of tests after 200 skill .. every point of skill = 0.9 Magic Accuracy .. & MND/INT/CHR adds magic accuracy to spells that relative to the stats .. I don't remember the formula exactly but it depends on the dINT/dMND/dCHR "difference between your stat & mob's stat" .. if it is +10 dINT/dMND/dCHR .. u get 1 Magic Accuracy for every 2 INT/MND/CHR or something like that

for me I'd say situational!

if you're BLM .. I'd go with Avocat pigaches definitely , since BLM has relatively low Enfeebling magic skill so every actual skill point make difference

if you're RDM .. you are better with Goliard , since you would have 300+ skill already so the magic accuracy will boost you skill even more & MND/INT/CHR would give you potency for the spells "Para/Slow namely" or add magic accuracy to INT based spells such as "Sleep/Gravity/Bind"

if you're BRD .. Goliard /o/ for sure
 Asura.Reublucian
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By Asura.Reublucian 2009-03-28 23:25:22
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Uhh on Bard I use Oracles Pigaches
 Asura.Moonglow
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By Asura.Moonglow 2009-03-29 01:39:03
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brd....
i do use o pigaches
but question in mind was rdm...not blm or brd
 Bahamut.Paulus
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By Bahamut.Paulus 2009-03-29 01:47:40
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It's gonna depend on all of your other gear.

For my setup goliard clogs are better.

Bat Eyes in Beaucedine are a good test with silence.

With Avacot Pigaches I'm usually 2/18 on landing silence on them. Goliard Clogs gets it to 3/18.

The 2 enfeebles though last longer with the pigaches. The third you'd get with the Goliard clogs is likely to only last a few seconds.

There are alot of other factors but that's the difference for me so far.
 Siren.Enternius
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By Siren.Enternius 2009-03-29 01:50:02
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Goliard are infinitely better. INT/MND/CHR are the main things you want for enfeebs, as they add both M.ACC AND potency.
 Garuda.Antipika
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By Garuda.Antipika 2009-03-29 19:52:33
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Quote:
With Avacot Pigaches I'm usually 2/18 on landing silence on them. Goliard Clogs gets it to 3/18.


That 2/18 could turn into a 4/20 after 2 extra casts, while 3/18 may remains 3/20.

When you wanna test something, do it on 500+ casts (1000+ ideally). Yeah it's a long process, but that's the only way to have accurate results. What you can do is asking someone to test with you (using the same equip / stats setup), and merge your tests.

As for MND enfeeble, neither of avocat or goliards, Morri feets :< (in b4 Salvage it too difficult/time consuming etc...). Feets 35 have a 10% drop rate, and level 25 drop on AR which is one of the easiest boss. Not to mention that they cost nothing to upgrade (<150K).
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By Pandemonium.Luignata 2009-03-29 21:39:14
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Antipika said:
Quote:
With Avacot Pigaches I'm usually 2/18 on landing silence on them. Goliard Clogs gets it to 3/18.


That 2/18 could turn into a 4/20 after 2 extra casts, while 3/18 may remains 3/20.

When you wanna test something, do it on 500+ casts (1000+ ideally). Yeah it's a long process, but that's the only way to have accurate results. What you can do is asking someone to test with you (using the same equip / stats setup), and merge your tests.


Don't forget it has to be on the same elemental day, as the day of the week will affect the results.. Not to mention weather too.
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By Odin.Blazza 2009-03-29 22:14:05
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The issue with macc testing is that there's no definite results, even 10,000+ tests couldn't be completely conclusive, thanks to minor differences in conditions (day/weather/moonphase even?).

The reason people know so much about physical accuracy and skill is because it's infinitely easier to test. /checking a mob will tell you about it's evasion comparative to your accuracy, so with swapping in other pieces of gear, you can find out exactly what effect each piece has in accuracy by /checking the mob and seeing what it's evasion is. And the attack side (which would relate to magical potency) is simply written in your equipment box. There's no way of seeing what your magical accuracy is aside from trial and error.
 Asura.Slamm
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By Asura.Slamm 2009-03-31 00:13:07
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read the new test that was done lol

1 magic acc is the same as 1 enfeebling magic for resists
both = 1% increase to magic hit rate if you are already above 50%
if you arent its .5% increase

int and mnd are 1% increase until u have over 10 of mobs total int
then its .5% after that

this shows why the 320/120 build is so good

read this page http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Magic_Accuracy

if you want the links to the tests they are there.
 Kujata.Argettio
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By Kujata.Argettio 2009-03-31 04:05:45
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http://kanican.livejournal.com/34049.html

M.ACC ~ Skill
2INT ~ 1Skill

Therefore:
Enfeebling Boot = 3 total magic acc
Goliard Clogs = 2 + 4INT(or MND)/2 = 4 total magic acc.

Basically Goliard Clogs are the most accurate de-buff feet than RDM and BLM can wear.

Also Goliard Clogs have INT and MND, so increase the potency of the spell (longer sleeps, more procs on paralyze).

So Goliard Clogs > all (in all situations)

*only possible exception is morrigan's feet: 10 MND = 5 M.ACC for MND enfeebles*
 Bahamut.Kelia
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By Bahamut.Kelia 2009-03-31 05:26:21
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Clogs are better for all black magic based enfeebles for any job that can use them. For slow/paralyze you should probably use mahatma or morrigan but if you have clogs and can't get either of those, might as well just use clogs.

Argettio nothing changes sleep "potency", it either lands for 60/90 sec (I/II), or it has a shorter duration due to a partial resist. INT increases accuracy of the spell but it won't magically make your sleep I last longer than 60 seconds.
 Asura.Korpg
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By Asura.Korpg 2009-03-31 05:29:23
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Kelia said:

Argettio nothing changes sleep "potency", it either lands for 60/90 sec (I/II), or it has a shorter duration due to a partial resist. INT increases accuracy of the spell but it won't magically make your sleep I last longer than 60 seconds.
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By Garuda.Wooooodum 2009-03-31 05:34:14
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Kelia said:
Argettio nothing changes sleep "potency", it either lands for 60/90 sec (I/II), or it has a shorter duration due to a partial resist. INT increases accuracy of the spell but it won't magically make your sleep I last longer than 60 seconds.


It's pretty obvious that he meant making it stick for the maximum time? That's called nit picking.
 Asura.Korpg
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By Asura.Korpg 2009-03-31 05:36:33
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Wooooodum said:
Kelia said:
Argettio nothing changes sleep "potency", it either lands for 60/90 sec (I/II), or it has a shorter duration due to a partial resist. INT increases accuracy of the spell but it won't magically make your sleep I last longer than 60 seconds.


It's pretty obvious that he meant making it stick for the maximum time? That's called nit picking.


Can't assume that though. Not by his text.
 Garuda.Wooooodum
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By Garuda.Wooooodum 2009-03-31 05:37:02
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Yes, you can. He clearly understands his job from his posts. Come on, guys. You don't always need somebody to troll. It's pretty annoying watching you nitpick perfectly good points for no reason.
 Asura.Korpg
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By Asura.Korpg 2009-03-31 05:39:06
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Wooooodum said:
Yes, you can. He clearly understands his job from his posts. Come on, guys. You don't always need somebody to troll. It's pretty annoying watching you nitpick perfectly good points for no reason.


My fault, didn't read his whole post thru, though he was talking about a different poster.

Sorry.
 Kujata.Argettio
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By Kujata.Argettio 2009-03-31 06:38:21
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ok, well if we all want to be super picky.

The duration of Sleep is based on dINT (cast INT vs Mob INT) upto the cap of 60/90sec.

On high INT (high lvl) mobs you need to think about stacking INT with your skill, to ensure you reach the cap.

Some mobs are hard to land sleep, but easy to cap duration and some the opposite. (this is all relative)

My point was most items either add stats or skill/m.acc, Gol Clogs have everything thing you want as a debuffing mage (and brd)... Stats and M.Acc so imo Gol clogs are the best there is.

N.B. In a lot of places 'Potency' of Enfeebles is an accepted term for duration of Sleep, Bind, Gravity, silence, the Proc rate of Paraylze, the % reduction of Slow, acc down of blind etc.

As its just 1 word for explaining all of that ^^
 Bahamut.Kelia
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By Bahamut.Kelia 2009-03-31 07:14:50
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Potency means effectiveness of a spell, it has nothing to do with duration. Slow has a potency which increases exponentially with MND. I could have a full potency 39% slow II wear off after 90 seconds. This does not mean it is less potent, it means it was 1/2 resisted and therefore has a shorter duration.

Paralyze, arguably, has a potency, which is for the most part untested. Blind has a potency, albeit a flat one which only varies between different versions of the spell, such as Blind I, Blind II, Kurayami: Ichi and Kurayami: Ni.

There is no potency involved with spells like Blind, Sleep, Silence; they are either in effect or they are not. The way you worded it made it sound like you thought that more int would add a couple of seconds' duration exponentially; that's not how it works at all. The two variables, potency and duration, are entirely separate. I am not trolling, believe it or not.

Quote:
N.B. In a lot of places 'Potency' of Enfeebles is an accepted term for duration of Sleep, Bind, Gravity, silence, the Proc rate of Paraylze, the % reduction of Slow, acc down of blind etc.


Sleep/Bind/gravity duration: static potency, variable duration- more so for bind and gravity than for sleep.
Acc down of blind: static potency, variable duration
Slow % reduction: variable potency, variable duration
Para procs: variable potency, holy *** random batman, variable duration
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By Odin.Blazza 2009-03-31 07:27:51
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Kelia said:
Potency means effectiveness of a spell, it has nothing to do with duration. Slow has a potency which increases exponentially with MND. I could have a full potency 39% slow II wear off after 90 seconds. This does not mean it is less potent, it means it was 1/2 resisted and therefore has a shorter duration.

Paralyze, arguably, has a potency, which is for the most part untested. Blind has a potency, albeit a flat one which only varies between different versions of the spell, such as Blind I, Blind II, Kurayami: Ichi and Kurayami: Ni.

There is no potency involved with spells like Blind, Sleep, Silence; they are either in effect or they are not. The way you worded it made it sound like you thought that more int would add a couple of seconds' duration exponentially; that's not how it works at all. The two variables, potency and duration, are entirely separate. I am not trolling, believe it or not.

Quote:
N.B. In a lot of places 'Potency' of Enfeebles is an accepted term for duration of Sleep, Bind, Gravity, silence, the Proc rate of Paraylze, the % reduction of Slow, acc down of blind etc.


Sleep/Bind/gravity duration: static potency, variable duration- more so for bind and gravity than for sleep.
Acc down of blind: static potency, variable duration
Slow % reduction: variable potency, variable duration
Para procs: variable potency, holy *** random batman, variable duration

Sure looks like pointless trolling to me, he said that he uses the word potency for spells that only have duration that can be effected by resists, makes perfect sense to me.

But the reason I'm posting, does gravity actually have static potency? When different mobs cast gravity on players the potency can vary a LOT (some gravities make you walk about 50% slower, some make you almost stop), is it at all possible to vary the movement speed -% with rdm grav (or either of the two blu grav's)?
 Kujata.Argettio
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By Kujata.Argettio 2009-03-31 07:30:49
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The way I understand it is thus:

If sleep is less that 60sec this is for one of 2 reasons:

1. You did not have enough m.acc/skil to land it fully unresisted

2. You did not have enough INT to reach the dINT Cap.

Option 1 is caused by a lack of accuracy

Options 2 is caused by what I term as a lack of potency. You have landed the spell, but not capped the duration.

Part of our disagreement is to do with language, I would say that the duration of a non-resisted sleep is its potency (maybe Im using the wrong terminolgy)

I think of it this way, as I beleive SE did not code enfeebles differently to nukes (thinking as programmer here, re-using code)

With a nuke, if it doesnt do much damage it is due to one of two things:

1. You did not have enough m.acc/skil to land it fully unresisted (so 50% resist etc)

2. You did not have enough INT/MAB/potency merits.

Option 1 is caused by a lack of accuracy

options 2 is caused by what I term as a lack of potency.
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By Kujata.Argettio 2009-03-31 07:38:54
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Blazza said:
But the reason I'm posting, does gravity actually have static potency? When different mobs cast gravity on players the potency can vary a LOT (some gravities make you walk about 50% slower, some make you almost stop), is it at all possible to vary the movement speed -% with rdm grav (or either of the two blu grav's)?


I honestly dont know. I have seen what you mean, the Gravity the HNM in besieged uses seem to be purticularly nasty one.

But I have never seen any one test it.
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By Odin.Blazza 2009-03-31 07:45:34
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Argettio said:
Blazza said:
But the reason I'm posting, does gravity actually have static potency? When different mobs cast gravity on players the potency can vary a LOT (some gravities make you walk about 50% slower, some make you almost stop), is it at all possible to vary the movement speed -% with rdm grav (or either of the two blu grav's)?


I honestly dont know. I have seen what you mean, the Gravity the HNM in besieged uses seem to be purticularly nasty one.

But I have never seen any one test it.

One way to test it would be mob races! Get a pimp rdm and a gimp rdm side by side, cast gravity on two of the same type of mob and see if one mob runs faster than the other :o
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By Bahamut.Kelia 2009-03-31 07:56:51
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Gravity has a static potency... the effect itself varies, the players' spell is -50% movement and -10 eva, this is also the spell CAST (not TP move) by mobs. Mysterious Light and the Wrath of Gu'Dha are a stronger effect, unsure about Artifical Gravity.
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By Odin.Blazza 2009-03-31 08:03:45
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Kelia said:
Gravity has a static potency... the effect itself varies, the players' spell is -50% movement and -10 eva, this is also the spell CAST (not TP move) by mobs. Mysterious Light and the Wrath of Gu'Dha are a stronger effect, unsure about Artifical Gravity.

I've never really played with Mysterious Light or Magnetite Cloud (blu versions) thanks to ridiculous MP costs (73 and 86) and stupid casting range, I'd assume that they're -50% movement just like rdm grav though. Pity.
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By Asura.Slamm 2009-03-31 11:22:30
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Argettio said:
http://kanican.livejournal.com/34049.html

M.ACC ~ Skill
2INT ~ 1Skill

Therefore:
Enfeebling Boot = 3 total magic acc
Goliard Clogs = 2 + 4INT(or MND)/2 = 4 total magic acc.

Basically Goliard Clogs are the most accurate de-buff feet than RDM and BLM can wear.

Also Goliard Clogs have INT and MND, so increase the potency of the spell (longer sleeps, more procs on paralyze).

So Goliard Clogs > all (in all situations)

*only possible exception is morrigan's feet: 10 MND = 5 M.ACC for MND enfeebles*


no lol this is what we all thought but was proven wrong and even kaeko agrees with it

check his newer post http://kanican.livejournal.com/34049.html#cutid1

also for the people posting int making sleep more potent, just stop cos its not true, only thing that reduces sleep duration is a resist, it does not work like mnd enfeebles. this was proven a long *** time ago.

avocat = 1.5 magic hit rate if you have under 50% atm
3% magic hit rate if u have over 50% atm

goliard = 2% and 1% for the magic acc
the int is 4% if your total int is less than or = to 10 more than mobs total int

if you are over that it is 2%

so goliard = 3%-6% always beating avocat
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By Garuda.Antipika 2009-04-01 03:17:33
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Blazza said:
The issue with macc testing is that there's no definite results, even 10,000+ tests couldn't be completely conclusive, thanks to minor differences in conditions (day/weather/moonphase even?).


You can exclude these factors pretty easily. Go to pudding camp, pudding resist sleep a bit, great place to do testing for enfeebling~MaCC. No dark/light weather, just avoid dark/light day, no other factor will change. No MP issue since you can chain sleep and aspir in the meantime :]

I'm too lazy to start doing tests there :x I would if I weren't alone, but doing at least 1000 casts * X different equip setup is :[
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By Asura.Korpg 2009-04-01 05:49:28
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Antipika said:

I'm too lazy to start doing tests there :x I would if I weren't alone, but doing at least 1000 casts * X different equip setup is :[


Slamm has though. He has done the tests, and have posted his findings online (check above website)

Personally, I trust his findings more than anyone else's, mostly cause his makes the most sense lol
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By Kujata.Argettio 2009-04-01 06:05:23
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Slamm said:
Argettio said:
http://kanican.livejournal.com/34049.html

M.ACC ~ Skill
2INT ~ 1Skill

Therefore:
Enfeebling Boot = 3 total magic acc
Goliard Clogs = 2 + 4INT(or MND)/2 = 4 total magic acc.

Basically Goliard Clogs are the most accurate de-buff feet than RDM and BLM can wear.

Also Goliard Clogs have INT and MND, so increase the potency of the spell (longer sleeps, more procs on paralyze).

So Goliard Clogs > all (in all situations)

*only possible exception is morrigan's feet: 10 MND = 5 M.ACC for MND enfeebles*


no lol this is what we all thought but was proven wrong and even kaeko agrees with it

check his newer post http://kanican.livejournal.com/34049.html#cutid1

also for the people posting int making sleep more potent, just stop cos its not true, only thing that reduces sleep duration is a resist, it does not work like mnd enfeebles. this was proven a long *** time ago.

avocat = 1.5 magic hit rate if you have under 50% atm
3% magic hit rate if u have over 50% atm

goliard = 2% and 1% for the magic acc
the int is 4% if your total int is less than or = to 10 more than mobs total int

if you are over that it is 2%

so goliard = 3%-6% always beating avocat

If you egnore that I used the term 'Total magic accuracy' rather than percentage hit rate (my bad uses of terminology)

and go of the unstated assumption that you have +10INT over the mob and more than a 50% chance of landing the spell. (again my fault for not being clear enough)

Then we agree.

As for the potency thing, I already admitted that I used the wrong term to descripe what I was talking about.
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