Daggers

Twilight would fare better, but probably not enough to catch up to Triplus in most circumstances.

There were fairly extensive Triplus vs. Twilight discussions when both were relatively new. Triplus eventually won out in those discussions because of the relatively low TP drain (compared to HP/MP) isn't worth it when combined with the delay. The 4A just doesn't add much when you consider Triplus already adds 3A.

That being said, because Twilight effects are true drains, the HP drain is like an additional effect dmg and the TP drain can keep mob TP undercontrol. That makes it very useful for times when you are main tanking and fighting optimally means something besides merely optimal DPS.

yea i guess i need to make str dagger now since i just got my 85 twasthar :)

If you're going to be using Rudra's, why not consider a TP Bonus Fusetto?

if you're gonna be engaged on something a long time the att kila is still pretty good. should get both.


*edit* to clarify, if you're gonna be fighting non stop the str/att dagger will help more with regular attacks and evis when your CF timer is down.

yeah, for a thf with twash and inside abyssea, tp bonus fusetto is the best offhand. That is, if you can keep using sa/ta+rs, meaning, if you have a tank partner.

If you can only rely on evis, triplus or fire kila are fine. They are pretty much even, and buffs/debuffs define the winner. Oneiros dagger beats them both though (and yeah, doesn't beat fusetto on the situation above).

Outside abyssea, fire kila or fusetto might win depending on how hard the target is. Need around close to capped attack for fusetto to work.

This is the rule of thumb i've been using after checking varying scenarios on a damage spreadsheet.

Good luck with that.

yep lol

well i've been reading lots of forums and says that str dagger for offhand is 2nd best dps weapon for main hand twasthar. i might as well pull out my x knife lol. so wish we could upgrade it

You could try Oneiros' Knife.

DMG:30 Delay:150 Critical hit Damage+10% and AGI+6

Its better DPS than X's Knife i believe.

And +6 AGI for ...
It's better DPS than X's knife!

Assuming he's not a DNC.

AGI+6 for Trick Attack > WS ?

Riiight.
I abyssea burned my THF to 90, I always forget that trick attack is modified by AGI.

(And yes, I'll be first to admit, I suck at THF. I really only levelled it for TH whoring when none are available and brewing solo with TH!)

Well THF sucks as a job outside of TH whoring anyway, I can't blame you.

(Outside Abyssea anyway)

So sad to see that coming from someone who is a THF :(

Its a simple sad cold reality :(

I'm speaking only of course on harder endgame content. Like say... Voidwatch, etc. Where our damage is very very low in comparison to a real DD like a WAR.

I still love the job very very much, but its obvious that unless you have a Relic/Empyrean for THF you won't even touch a real DDs damage, even with a Relic/Empyrean you won't be winning any parses against DD of Equal gear and intelligence :(

(I'd actually like to see how well a Mandau/or/Thwast THF would parse against an Ukon WAR or something Similar on meaningful out-side Abyssea content like Voidwatch!)

Maybe Gred can go test it for me :3

well in my small ls we got ga hth katana guns dagger and soon to be gk. and were about to start VW so ill let you know.

Those would be some really interesting parses I'd like to see. I appreciate it!

Puttin money on GA unless he's kind of stupid.

I know the GA is going to win by Miles I just want to know exactly how far behind a good THF is to a real DD :o

lol i compared both thf and war spreadsheet removing abyssea stuff. Guess who won? thf lol. 140 vs 130 dps. Although i didn't put the same work i had already done on the thf spreadsheet for the war one. And the war spreadsheet would actually need some serious thought, considering the compromises (to crit rate) they have to make outside.

Thief takes far more effort and specialization to play well as a DD comparative to other jobs. We are not designed like WAR where we can engage, hit our buffs, then just WS every 30s. We also lack the luxury of ridiculous damage formulas implemented to balance "Party invite frequency" that had tremendous imbalancing impact on other aspects of the game.

Scaling and balancing matters aside, I do believe Thief is meant to be played a DD and that it is the correct way to utilize the job, regardless of Relic. If all you want is TH, what you need is a mule with Knife/Armlets/Poulaines not a THF.

While there are certain situations where Thief is destined to lag behind, there were plenty of end game situations where Thief did fine. The foremost that comes to mind is Einherjar. I consistently parsed as second tier in Einherjar before I got Mandau, beating even MNKs and Bravura WARs consistently when under neutral circumstances. (Ridill WARs consistently did best as a group in Einherjar).

Also in my experience, with top tier gear one could do fine on any HNM where constantly engaged melee were generally acceptable with appropriate tweaking. I always felt that the point of Mandau and Mercy Stroke was to restore the balance of pre-ROZ where stacking allowed us to do the best WS damage instead of being necessary just to keep pace.

Thief's biggest weakness was a void of burst-on-demand damage, like 2hr zergs where our 2hr doesn't boost us like other jobs. Our usefulness to the alliance through abilities like Feint did nothing to make us stand out as individuals.

I can't really speak about post-Abyssea "hard" endgame, because I've personally found Voidwatch to be generally melee-adverse. Both an Ukkon WAR and Verethragna MNK did just as bad as me on Krabiminjaro.

But I imagine the scaling issues we had at 75 are only going to become worse. As more of the base utilizes a capped haste build it will further infringe on our remaining superiority in WS frequency and total swing frequency. Not to mention Last Resort is just retardedly broken now, even without a Relic.

(Yes i read it all)

These are my biggest concerns. That we'll return to what it was at 75. our Damage will be low and our uses limited.

Really, It surprised me to say you were in a good Einherjar LS with equal players and parsed so high even without a Relic, Its something I didn't expect. Its almost baffling.

I think the problem for THF isn't trash mobs, Its HNM-level Enemies, where their DEF greatly outclasses our attack, and our numbers fall baddly.

Maybe (and this is a big maybe) I'm overreacting a little but i do feel the job is very weak in comparison to any other DD out there. I'm not asking for WAR-Level Strength, Just enough power behind us we're not doomed to TH *** by the community.

(maybe we already have that? IDK...)

(BTW im not talking about Abyssea here =.=a)

You underrate what THF was capable of back then, but my concern is that we will be taking another step back in addition.

Previously a complete THF had a 3-5% haste advantage on most jobs due to the somewhat rare ability to equip a haste body. We don't have that anymore given how overpowered AF3 is and how accessible it is to even mediocre WARs and DRKs and SAMs


Einherjar is a high buff situation (4 songs or 2/2 songs and rolls) which equalizes the playing field quite a bit.

Also Bravura was, and will continue to be until a Metatron overhaul, a gigantic waste of currency.


Previously a trade-off existed where 2H weapons excelled in high defense mobs where we fell off, but the extra dmg and attack didn't do much on easier fare. Then they imbalanced it because of whining and now 2H weapons rape on everything.

Post August 07 Hasso/2H patch, you could still do "okay" on many mobs, but you could only really match the designed imbalance with Mandau. The leap between Mandau and the next best dagger was gigantic compared to other relics and the next best, and that is what allowed us to catch up.

Mandau's ability to bootstrap us up is probably compromised now with how imba Ukkon and Verethragna are respective to their second best options.


75 cap was hard, but it was definitely possible to be competitive or even the top with Mandau.

The problem was stigma associated with gimps. A gimp WAR can get carried by the sheer imbalance of the class. THF cannot.

With how the game has evolved we need to be rescaled more than other jobs. Beforehand relics were rarities, but it's a fair assumption now that a top tier play has AT LEAST an Empyrean, we need an overhaul of SA/TA, reworking of DW/1H damage formulas, innate dual wield over T1 (seriously why does DNC get T4?), and stances similar to Hasso (or just the ability to use Innin).

Yah, Maybe i'm wording it wrong.

But we're both asking for the same thing, a buff to THFs DD ability in some meaningful way.

I think what makes me the most upset is SE's proposed "Vision" for THF as basically a master of useless. "Here, have a Despoil buff! and maybe some more Enmity JA you wont get to use!"

It got me a little upset they seem to think THF is fine and dandy where it is and the only buffs we may receive are buffs to useless Job abilities :|

(I know the Manifesto isn't set in stone...)