Future WAR Tanking Capabilities...90+WAR/MNK Or 90+WAR/DNC

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2010-09-08
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Future WAR tanking capabilities...90+WAR/MNK or 90+WAR/DNC
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By Darkjoker 2010-07-09 20:06:34
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I've been looking into some new job set-ups when the next level cap gets raised...in particular 90+WAR/MNK compared to a 90+WAR/DNC.

Now, with WAR/MNK at lvl 90 you'd get counterstance. Considering they don't gimp it as a subjob, you're looking at about a 50% counter rate but you're also looking at a dramatic decrease in def. So you bust out a PDT GAXE from ToM (or maybe a PDT axe and shield) to counter that (to an extent), use Defender, and retaliation (for the chance to counter when you actually do get hit), and then more PDT gear here and there...perhaps a Nocturnus Helm for the Occasionally absorbs physical dmg. Would definitely need some outside healing for this, but the chance to not take dmg for 50% of hits is pretty legit.

And then on to WAR/DNC...you get Haste Samba, Drain Samba II, Dual Wield, and self curing. The same PDT build as WAR/MNK. You'd take more hits as WAR/DNC but you'd also get self curing to keep your HPs up. In this situation you could use a PDT Gaxe, a PDT axe and shield, or dual wield two PDT axes (-8% each axe).

Curious on your thoughts. Of course this is in no way stating that WAR is comin' back to tank down the big mobs in EGLS, just more geared towards low-man/solo style tankage on mobs that aren't extremely over-powered.

 Siren.Enternius
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By Siren.Enternius 2010-07-09 20:10:05
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Don't even need to read this (I did anyway), to tell you that WAR/NIN will always be a better tank, and so will WAR/SAM.

Yes, Counterstance would be nice, but it doesn't do anything that Retaliation doesn't already do, except decrease your DEF.

Defender will up your DEF by a very tiny, miniscule amount with Counterstance up. maybe +10 DEF, at a cost of 200+ Attack.

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 Alexander.Nepharite
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By Alexander.Nepharite 2010-07-09 20:10:06
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Anything that war/dnc or war/mnk can tank, would probably be better off tanking as war/nin.

If you have the support to actually blood tank something, you'll have the support to go war/nin and do dmg while tanking.
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 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-07-09 20:13:16
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Good luck holding hate with non-DD gear and Defender.

EDIT: Oho, I just saw that you intended to pair it with Counterstance. Um... that's not going to work quite as well as you think it would either. Might as well Berserk even, enemy pDIF will be capped regardless.
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 Asura.Aeinaitch
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By Asura.Aeinaitch 2010-07-09 20:24:28
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Defender + Counterstance is like using tylenol for a flesh wound.
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 Valefor.Madranta
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By Valefor.Madranta 2010-07-10 02:34:46
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I agree with what the others have said here... Defender + Counterstance sounds good in theory but if you know how each ability works you'll know they don't compliment each other at all. Nightfyre is right, you may as well Berserk.
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-07-10 02:40:57
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Yes, Counterstance would be nice, but it doesn't do anything that Retaliation doesn't already do

Wrong again
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 Cerberus.Kelhor
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By Cerberus.Kelhor 2010-07-10 03:05:55
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Counterstance (well, Counter) negates hits entirely.

Retaliation returns some damage like spikes do - you get TP like a normal hit, but you still take the original damage.

They're not the same thing. You could have both up and they would complement each other in the sense that you'd always be hitting the mob, even if it wasn't always negating damage.

But yes, don't use defender and stance together.
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By Audra 2010-07-10 03:15:18
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Cerberus.Kelhor said:
Counterstance (well, Counter) negates hits entirely.

Retaliation returns some damage like spikes do - you get TP like a normal hit, but you still take the original damage.

They're not the same thing. You could have both up and they would complement each other in the sense that you'd always be hitting the mob, even if it wasn't always negating damage.

But yes, don't use defender and stance together.

Using defender would be pointless. Counterstance cancels all defense bonuses gained from spells/songs/JA's/etc.
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By Audra 2010-07-10 03:16:28
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Oops, it works with songs, i didn't mean to say that. It only works with songs though.
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By Unicorn.Sedres 2010-07-10 03:22:01
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I think the OP is looking to use WAR in the same way you'd use PLD/WAR in Dynamis or similar event, in which case WAR/DNC would have SOME more sustainability than /MNK, but then, you're always going to have PLD's which will be better tanks in the first place.

Admitedly WAR would have voke natively, but the point I'm trying to make is you don' typically have blink tanks for everything. Would be nice to have a bit of wiggle room in the tank department other than PLD and NIN (aside from MNK for Salvage).
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By Cerberus.Kelhor 2010-07-10 03:27:51
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Audra said:
Using defender would be pointless. Counterstance cancels all defense bonuses gained from spells/songs/JA's/etc.

Uh, I said not to use stance and defender. Stance and retaliation though, is perfectly fine. What's wrong with those two?
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-07-10 13:49:44
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Unicorn.Sedres said:
I think the OP is looking to use WAR in the same way you'd use PLD/WAR in Dynamis or similar event, in which case WAR/DNC would have SOME more sustainability than /MNK, but then, you're always going to have PLD's which will be better tanks in the first place.

Admitedly WAR would have voke natively, but the point I'm trying to make is you don' typically have blink tanks for everything. Would be nice to have a bit of wiggle room in the tank department other than PLD and NIN (aside from MNK for Salvage).
SAM, DRK, BLU. Voila, 6 tanks.
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By Cerberus.Kvazz 2010-07-10 14:07:41
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Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Unicorn.Sedres said:
I think the OP is looking to use WAR in the same way you'd use PLD/WAR in Dynamis or similar event, in which case WAR/DNC would have SOME more sustainability than /MNK, but then, you're always going to have PLD's which will be better tanks in the first place.

Admitedly WAR would have voke natively, but the point I'm trying to make is you don' typically have blink tanks for everything. Would be nice to have a bit of wiggle room in the tank department other than PLD and NIN (aside from MNK for Salvage).
SAM, DRK, BLU. Voila, 6 tanks.


RDM!



owait...

Edit:

Actually, WHM might be a decent tank to replace RDM, specially those with yagrush =p
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-07-10 14:19:03
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RDM!
Dead tank is dead
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 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-07-10 14:25:05
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Cerberus.Kvazz said:
Actually, WHM might be a decent tank to replace RDM, specially those with yagrush =p
Not seeing it tbh. Less CE than an unengaged PLD (same tools, less enmity gear). You've Stoneskin but it's on the full 10 second cast timer because you'd have no FC traits and PLD gets Phalanx these days so it's not a huge advantage on many fights. I'd bring a BLU or PLD over a WHM tank any day.
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By Cerberus.Kvazz 2010-07-10 14:29:34
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Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Cerberus.Kvazz said:
Actually, WHM might be a decent tank to replace RDM, specially those with yagrush =p
Not seeing it tbh. Less CE than an unengaged PLD (same tools, less enmity gear). You've Stoneskin but it's on the full 10 second cast timer because you'd have no FC traits and PLD gets Phalanx these days so it's not a huge advantage on many fights. I'd bring a BLU or PLD over a WHM tank any day.

Yeah for sure, but it might be a potential tank if it gets more enm gear.
But ofc, PLD is the first choice pretty much allways, DRK does a good job too, but needs very good support now, due to absorb-spells for hate(when they can't dd) rather than the good old bind\sleep etc ;;
Dont have much experience with BLU tanks, but I suppose they kinda replaced RDM now.
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 Fairy.Ghaleon
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By Fairy.Ghaleon 2010-07-10 14:38:09
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sam/mnk at lvl 90 is going to be crazy. with counterstance giving ~50% counter rate, and it stacks with seigan + thirdeye (you already get an increased rate of counter with both up)

not to mention sam has access to many counter+ equipment, i think it would be possible to get a 75% counter rate with equip and counterstance (if theres no hard cap).

Sam will Reign king at endgame 90+ just like it has @ 75, no doubt in my mind. xD
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-07-10 14:43:48
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good portion of CS comes from af2 feet and no voke can fk u on things you cant dmg all the time. like if you lost hate on cerb w/ stoneskin up = dead mages.
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 Cerberus.Neojuggernaut
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By Cerberus.Neojuggernaut 2010-07-10 14:47:53
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Just a speculation, IF they allow counterstance to be used as /mnk (I say "IF" with point in case being /nin cannot use Yonin or Innin) surely it will get gimped. No idea how bad it gets gimped but I just can't imagine /mnk having 50% counter rate on the JA.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-07-10 14:54:49
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Cerberus.Kvazz said:
But ofc, PLD is the first choice pretty much allways,
nah
Quote:
DRK does a good job too, but needs very good support now, due to absorb-spells for hate(when they can't dd) rather than the good old bind\sleep etc ;;
Other than Absorb-TP all Absorb spells are pure VE. If you can't DD, I wouldn't tank it on DRK anymore.
Quote:
Dont have much experience with BLU tanks, but I suppose they kinda replaced RDM now.
Pretty much. Somewhat less sturdy, but has the best unengaged hate gain currently and can work with reduced support when necessary due to self-Refresh.
Fairy.Ghaleon said:
sam/mnk at lvl 90 is going to be crazy. with counterstance giving ~50% counter rate, and it stacks with seigan + thirdeye (you already get an increased rate of counter with both up)

not to mention sam has access to many counter+ equipment, i think it would be possible to get a 75% counter rate with equip and counterstance (if theres no hard cap).

Sam will Reign king at endgame 90+ just like it has @ 75, no doubt in my mind. xD
The thing about counter+ equipment is that it often sacrifices haste or acc slots. If it gives up haste you're losing DPS and thus reducing hate generation; if you're giving up acc you're losing both DPS and acc on counter. You're also potentially in a heap of trouble if TE goes down early, since you'll have to blood tank until recast is up.

SAM's running with the pack moreso than ahead of it now; if you want a king of endgame I'd look elsewhere...
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 Fairy.Ghaleon
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By Fairy.Ghaleon 2010-07-10 14:56:12
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sam gets af that increases counter rate during seigan+thirdeye as well, also im not too worried about the hate issue, as of now i hold hate fairly well sam/nin. sam just has to ws again to recap hate and wont have trouble holding at all.
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-07-10 15:02:36
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Fairy.Ghaleon said:
sam gets af that increases counter rate during seigan thirdeye as well, also im not too worried about the hate issue, as of now i hold hate fairly well sam/nin. sam just has to ws again to recap hate and wont have trouble holding at all.
we're talking about when third eye is down, pretty ***/defenseless
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By Ragnarok.Ruklin 2010-07-10 15:43:06
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Back to the topic, WAR gets all the same dmg mitigation gear that PLD does. Throw on some counterstance + retaliation and you can cure bomb a WAR and not pull hate off of them. However, this is really only a viable option if the main tanks go down and you need to recover. It wouldn't be something you would do intentionally for a fight. More like a back-up plan in case ***goes downhill. In regards to the lack of haste gear because of replacing it with dmg reduction gear, when you're hitting that often due to counterstance/retaliation the loss of haste in a couple slots isn't going to matter that much compared to what you'll gain from dmg reduction. (sorry for the extra long post)
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-07-10 17:37:54
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Ragnarok.Ruklin said:
Back to the topic, WAR gets all the same dmg mitigation gear that PLD does. Throw on some counterstance retaliation and you can cure bomb a WAR and not pull hate off of them. However, this is really only a viable option if the main tanks go down and you need to recover. It wouldn't be something you would do intentionally for a fight. More like a back-up plan in case ***goes downhill. In regards to the lack of haste gear because of replacing it with dmg reduction gear, when you're hitting that often due to counterstance/retaliation the loss of haste in a couple slots isn't going to matter that much compared to what you'll gain from dmg reduction. (sorry for the extra long post)
Those hits have to actually land to generate hate, which isn't going to happen as often when you're turtled up. PLD on the other hand would /NIN, allowing them to wear DD gear when TPing... and a significant portion of their hate comes from spells, which allows them to turtle up when necessary with far less loss in enmity generation. And if it's a backup plan... why are you /MNK to begin with? Should be /SAM or /NIN.

If WAR/MNK can tank it, MNK/WAR would do a far better job.
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 Siren.Enternius
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By Siren.Enternius 2010-07-10 17:39:10
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Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Ragnarok.Ruklin said:
Back to the topic, WAR gets all the same dmg mitigation gear that PLD does. Throw on some counterstance retaliation and you can cure bomb a WAR and not pull hate off of them. However, this is really only a viable option if the main tanks go down and you need to recover. It wouldn't be something you would do intentionally for a fight. More like a back-up plan in case ***goes downhill. In regards to the lack of haste gear because of replacing it with dmg reduction gear, when you're hitting that often due to counterstance/retaliation the loss of haste in a couple slots isn't going to matter that much compared to what you'll gain from dmg reduction. (sorry for the extra long post)
Those hits have to actually land to generate hate, which isn't going to happen as often when you're turtled up. PLD on the other hand would /NIN, allowing them to wear DD gear when TPing... and a significant portion of their hate comes from spells, which allows them to turtle up when necessary with far less loss in enmity generation.
PLD/NIN would be both a better tank and a better DD than WAR/MNK.
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 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-07-10 17:40:35
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Yep, though I'd take MNK instead in this case.
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By Phoenix.Airbag 2010-07-10 18:21:47
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I'm not seeing why you wouldnt just use a paladin
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 Caitsith.Heimdall
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By Caitsith.Heimdall 2010-07-10 19:46:55
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well 2 things being a 75+ mnk and a war i found war/blu has better tanking/dmg management over /nin or sam long u got the right gear and some form of refresh etheral earring helps to. with war/mnk u'll also have boost on top of voke what is 1/3 1/5 hate of voke every 15 secs. I've used it plenty times to hold hate or pull hate off of mages.
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