T4 Reisenjima Strategy.

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T4 Reisenjima Strategy.
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By ocean 2017-12-03 10:53:26
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Not sure why you're worried about debuffs? Stacking debuffs will make it use Yaksha Stance, which comes with a 50% PDT penalty. I haven't done it with RNGs personally, but I would assume you want to keep it in Raksha Stance to do full damage.

To change it to raksha stance, you just need to keep at least 4 buffs on your tank for a short period. To keep it there, minimize debuffs used.

I think he's trying to use TrueFlight?
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-12-05 18:57:23
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Had issues with Vinipata today with sleeping and having it go into Yaksha. I think we know what to change though.
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-12-06 12:42:56
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Ok I got a few more questions on Vinipata (ranger setup).

1) Do people use an adds tank? Or would this make it problematic as the tank party has to keep buffs up on both? Or do you only need to keep buffs up on one?

2) Considering you don't have a REMA BRD, would one brd be enough for sleeps? Or would most groups consider bringing two (and put one in each party) and rotate?

3) What happens if the adds get away from the main tank? Is there a way to recover if the adds don't stay together? Or is it absolutely essential the sleepers re-apply as soon as it wears?
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2017-12-06 12:46:12
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How are you trying to sleep it? It's most likely not going to land without NT, and you'll want NT anyway for the extended duration.
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-12-06 13:57:03
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Fenrir.Ramzus said: »
How are you trying to sleep it? It's most likely not going to land without NT, and you'll want NT anyway for the extended duration.

Nightingale + Troubadour? Yes. We also had the brd /blm for Elemental Seal for an extra sleep.
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-12-06 14:04:56
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Why use Nightingale? Surely it only changes the recast time which wouldn't be an issue anyway? Or is it more to do with instant casting the song?
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By Shiva.Spynx 2017-12-06 14:10:27
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Adds have very fluid hate (each stance will have a color sharing have with 1 vini and the other attacking whoever does any action) so a 2nd tank isn't really worth it and if you miss the first sleep, you can pop revit/RD and try again right away. You don't strictly need any RMEA on BRD (1 is enough) as long as you have decent accuracy, pop duration/accuracy JAs and are careful making sure all adds are in range to get slept on pop.

It's a matter of doing as much dmg as possible before 2nd set of adds pop (1st being the initial one) and when that happens you can wipe and have someone bio-zombie it till everybody unweaks. At this point sleep again and try to kill it before adds wake up.
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By Shiva.Spynx 2017-12-06 14:12:49
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Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Why use Nightingale? Surely it only changes the recast time which wouldn't be an issue anyway? Or is it more to do with instant casting the song?

[Edit] I was wrong on the extended sleep duration (thanks Comeatmebro), Nightingale will help you with sleep recast should you miss the first one.
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-12-06 14:14:43
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Shiva.Spynx said: »
Adds have very fluid hate (each stance will have a color sharing have with 1 vini and the other attacking whoever does any action) so a 2nd tank isn't really worth it and if you miss the first sleep, you can pop revit/RD and try again right away. You don't strictly need any RMEA on BRD (1 is enough) as long as you have decent accuracy, pop duration/accuracy JAs and are careful making sure all adds are in range to get slept on pop.

It's a matter of doing as much dmg as possible before 2nd set of adds pop (1st being the initial one) and when that happens you can wipe and have someone bio-zombie it till everybody unweaks. At this point sleep again and try to kill it before adds wake up.

So what would you suggest if the adds got away from the tank and head for the backline? Tell everyone to stop while they find their way back to the tank and then sleep? Have whoever got hate run toward the tank? Just wondering how groups deal with the adds if a sleep is missed.

PS: Is there any point in bringing the brd with /blm? Or is not useful due to the lack of duration?
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By Shiva.Spynx 2017-12-06 14:27:21
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You can only really miss the sleep on pop as after the wipe, all mobs will be clustered together and brd can sleep and tank flash/voke vini once sleep lands. For the way hate works there, the popper will have all enmity on pop and mobs won't attack anybody until action is taken so make sure nobody does anything at all until they are asleep. If the BRD misses any mobs on 1st sleep, he should ride horde lullaby timer and try again asap while tank and brd stay together so mobs don't scatter around.

If you need to sleep later for whatever reason, you are right, the person with hate should run toward the tank but that usually means you are doing something wrong.
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By cuddlyhamster 2017-12-06 14:27:49
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what i do is N/T the first set of adds. Marcato/Ele Seal the second set of adds. Super Revit and repeat. I dont know the quality of gear on your brd. But Soul voice will also help with duration and accuracy. Clarion Call too if got JPs
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-12-06 14:29:33
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Shiva.Spynx said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Why use Nightingale? Surely it only changes the recast time which wouldn't be an issue anyway? Or is it more to do with instant casting the song?

20 extra seconds on sleep if using relic feets
That's actually 20 extra seconds on nightingale itself's duration, not the songs cast with it active. Nightingale isn't vital, and if you're relying on random deals it shouldn't be used. It has some value in reducing recast in case you get hit with bot delay or out of range.

If you are not confident, I would recommend using N/T on first set of adds, wild carding yourself, using N/T on second set of adds, and using ES on the third set. If you wipe, have someone designated to bio2 vinipata and someone else designated to diaga adds. BRD can dia sac once bio wears, and you'll be able to cleanly resleep all adds that are up when you repull.

There's more than enough time for one repull, potentially time for two if your issue is coordination rather than gear. No, this shouldn't be necessary, but it was a common part of the fight in the early days of T4 and it can still help.
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By Shiva.Spynx 2017-12-06 14:35:51
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cuddlyhamster said: »
what i do is N/T the first set of adds. Marcato/Ele Seal the second set of adds. Super Revit and repeat. I dont know the quality of gear on your brd. But Soul voice will also help with duration and accuracy. Clarion Call too if got JPs

This is a very solid advice giving you even more time to deal dmg before the zombie wipe (we used to do this as well, I forgot, it's been a while) but it requires coordination and people need to stop doing anything as soon as adds pop so the brd can sleep them on top of tank and everybody needs to be careful not to misfire an add and wake it up (just lock-on to be sure)

Best luck to your group, I'm sure you'll take it down!
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-12-06 14:46:03
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The plan for us was to use Troubadour first. When that wore, use ES. I'd Random Deal our BRD to potentially reset both. When he's out of JAs, I'd Wild card and get Troubadour, ES, and Random Deal back. Super Revit. would give us another round. We were using 3 rangers and 1 corsair for DPS with 12 of us, which I assume is enough to kill (before we run out of JAs), or at least get it close before wiping?

We could pair Marcato with ES but there's a chance Random Deal might not reset Troubadour .. so I've got mixed feelings on it.

What about the tank? Does he need bard songs? We were considering just giving them Haste 2 due to us having plenty of support. I'm guessing haste 2 and a GEO-haste would be enough to cap? (we had 2 geo in the tank pt)
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By Shiva.Spynx 2017-12-06 16:20:41
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Your tank shouldn't require much support but since Raksha Stance (MDT-50%) is forced by buffs, extra ones won't hurt you. Think you may be using too much support vs dmg if you have 2 GEOs in tank pt. I do not know the optimal ratio of DD to party size but you would use 9 people in the ideal setup (3RNG COR GEO GEO + hopping-BRD TANK WHM) so if increasing the number of people you probably want at least another DD.

To answer your question on haste, haste2+geo-haste is way overkill (30% + 35% from non-idris is 65% magical haste when cap is 44%) so haste 1 would be enough but RDM is a nice extra slot even just to flurry II the RNG/COR and sabo distract 3 (if forced in same stance).

Another nice tip if you are using a PLD tank is to use holy circle (17% bonus dmg for 4.5 mins with AF feet). If you use it just before pop and before reclaiming after wipe, it will give you a nice boost in dmg, not to mention the extra defense and intimidation rate for the tank
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By tyalangan 2017-12-06 17:17:35
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Shiva.Spynx said: »
sabo distract 3 (if forced in same stance).

So, if in Raksha Stance doing one or two enfeebles won't cause a change? Based on BG it won't switch to Yaksha until 4 debuffs? So, I could have Dia3 and Distract3?
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-12-06 21:20:30
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Up to 3 yes. PLD uses Flash, so leaves 2 others. Any debuff which is dispellable counts toward possibility of Yaksha.
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-12-08 16:00:15
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Does the damage type reduction from Banish III count as a dispellable debuff?
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-12-12 20:14:14
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We tried Vinipata a bunch of times tonight, and each time it changed to Yaksha. We were using dia III Banish III, and nothing else for debuffs: avoided distract and sepulcher.

Anyone know why this is? We got it to 20% despite the constant switches. It would change while the tank was fully buffed. Anyone able to confirm the way of forcing it in to Raksha? Or is it not possible?
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-12-13 13:42:47
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So has anyone ever managed to force Vinipata in to Raksha Stance? Or will it always end up in Yaksha at some point and we need to do more to avoid it?
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-12-13 15:45:44
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you're 100% sure those were the only debuffs on him? No Elegy from the BRD or the like? In all the melee style Vinis I've done were always just Dia3/Distract3 in terms of debuffs and everyone else stayed off, and Vini stayed in Raksha (-MDT stance, the one you want for meleeing).

Honestly, in all the experiences I've had with him, he stays where he should stance-wise. In terms of switching him back FROM Yaksha to Raksha, it really is completely up to him because as you know the proc for Raksha is the presence of buffed PLAYERS close to Vinipata, not something you can actively do to him. So the AI comes into play if you get him into Yaksha Stance by accident.
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-12-13 15:48:08
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
you're 100% sure those were the only debuffs on him? No Elegy from the BRD or the like? In all the melee style Vinis I've done were always just Dia3/Distract3 in terms of debuffs and everyone else stayed off, and Vini stayed in Raksha (-MDT stance, the one you want for meleeing).

Honestly, in all the experiences I've had with him, he stays where he should stance-wise. In terms of switching him back FROM Yaksha to Raksha, it really is completely up to him because as you know the proc for Raksha is the presence of buffed PLAYERS close to Vinipata, not something you can actively do to him. So the AI comes into play if you get him into Yaksha Stance by accident.

Yes my group will confirm we were only using Dia III and Banish III in our later pops (used sepulcher and distract III on the earlier ones) and it still switched to Yaksha. We believe we'd have killed it by now if it didn't do this, but after multiple pops keeping debuffs to a minimum we are at a loss. Thinking about doing a pop with no debuffs at all, just to be sure.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-12-13 15:49:41
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Or if it keeps doing that to you- if you have the horses for a SC-burst strat, could try that! Did that exclusively for a long time, then switched to melee, but the mage strat is still very viable.
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-12-13 15:54:28
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Or if it keeps doing that to you- if you have the horses for a SC-burst strat, could try that! Did that exclusively for a long time, then switched to melee, but the mage strat is still very viable.

We lack black mages which is why we went the ranger route. Our best fight was with 2 cors and 1 rng with 8 of us (got it to 20% then we had too many adds) and did well considering yaksha killing our dps. I think positioning is also an issue for us.
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By Bismarck.Nickeny 2017-12-13 16:00:21
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Didnt try to zombie and retry?
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-12-13 16:02:55
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Bismarck.Nickeny said: »
Didnt try to zombie and retry?

Yeah we are able to zombie and recover, but the constant yaksha switches kills dps. We have videos which the ls have been studying and we can't seem to figure it out. I thought that maybe it was something the PLD was using (maybe reprisal?) that would act like a debuff without us knowing. Not sure if Sepulcher or Banish III count as debuffs.

Just to clarify what I've found from watching our many attempts:

1. I've seen it change a couple of times when Dia III was reapplied. Doesn't make sense as you're simply replacing the same debuff before it wears.

2. Seen it switch to yaksha randomly. No apparent reason, and PLD was fully buffed each time.

3. I've also seen it change a few times immediately after an add releases its TP with a yaksha of its own.

Sometimes Yaksha will go straight back to Raksha, or it will stay in it for a while (if Meikyo is up) before returning.

PS: Seems my LS are more open to trying it the BLM way, and we might be able to do it but would require a PLD tank (don't have run or pup at the moment).
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-12-13 16:49:24
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impressed you dropped it to 20% even dealing with that BS and only having 2 CORs, 1 RNG for your DPS. If you could swap that to 2 RNG, 1 COR you would likely do better, unless your LS is just sittin on two great CORs and lackluster RNGs!

I'm now very much looking forward to our next Vini. Do continue to keep posting updates, I'm enjoying following your shell's progress. You'll get there, you're doing it the right way. And damn that group pic of your aeonics is gonna feel really good at the end.
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-12-13 16:53:34
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
impressed you dropped it to 20% even dealing with that BS and only having 2 CORs, 1 RNG for your DPS. If you could swap that to 2 RNG, 1 COR you would likely do better, unless your LS is just sittin on two great CORs and lackluster RNGs!

I'm now very much looking forward to our next Vini. Do continue to keep posting updates, I'm enjoying following your shell's progress. You'll get there, you're doing it the right way. And damn that group pic of your aeonics is gonna feel really good at the end.

Hell yeah it will, we been through many struggles to get here lol. What helped us with 2 cors was the ability to keep 4 rolls + bard songs up, as well as more resets for the bards sleep. I believe if we had our other rng (had to leave before the pop) we'd have been very close despite yaksha for half the fight.

Honestly can't think of anything else at this point, other than to try it without dia or distract III. Using Holy Circle of course, but I don't even want to try Banish III or Sepulcher .. that's how bad our luck has been. I'd like to finish this NM the ranger way, as we came so close already, but if we can't figure out how to keep it in Raksha we may have no other choice but to change the approach.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-12-13 16:55:47
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oh if you'll have a 2nd RNG next time you try, I'd go for it the same way. Assuming they're solid (doing omen and progressing on their gear, have a RMEA weapon option like Annihilator,at least 1200JPs) I can see that working quite well. 4 rolls is definitely a great luxury vs. a necessity, but having multiple resets for the BRD is a solid move.
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-12-13 17:02:18
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Yeah I think either way we can wreck it if we can keep it nicely in raksha. Is it possible to use Panacea to get rid of the -110 stats if yaksha oblivien gets us?
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