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ABA asks NSA about attorney-client privilege
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-02-28 14:43:07
American Bar Association asks NSA to explain how intelligence agency deals with attorney-client privilege
-pdf of full letter from ABA
Quote: The interception and sharing of attorney-client privileged communications by government agencies—or any third party—raises concerns, including chilling the full and frank discussion between lawyer and client that is essential for effective legal representation. Any government surveillance and interception of confidential communications between law firms and their clients threaten to seriously undermine and weaken the privilege, because as the U.S. Supreme Court noted in Upjohn Co. v. United States, 449 U.S. 383 (1981), “an uncertain privilege…is little better than no privilege at all.”
Press Release
Quote: WASHINGTON, Feb. 21, 2014 — The American Bar Association sent a letter to the National Security Agency on Feb. 20 expressing concerns over recent allegations of possible foreign government surveillance of American lawyers’ confidential communications with their overseas clients and the subsequent sharing of the privileged information with the NSA. The ABA also requested clarification on the agency’s current policies and practices designed to protect the attorney-client privileged information that it intercepts or receives and whether those directives were followed in connection with the alleged incident.
An article in The New York Times alleges that the Australian Signals Directorate intercepted privileged communications between the government of Indonesia and an American law firm and then shared the information with the NSA. Citing that allegation, ABA President James R. Silkenat expressed concern that if confidential information was intercepted and shared with the NSA, it could be improperly utilized by the U.S. government or third parties.
“The attorney-client privilege is a bedrock legal principle of our free society and is important in both the civil and criminal contexts,” Silkenat wrote. “It enables both individual and organizational clients to communicate with their lawyers in confidence, which is essential to preserving all clients’ fundamental rights to effective counsel.”
The ABA further urged the NSA not to actively seek confidential communications between U.S. law firms and their clients. If confidential information is obtained by the NSA inadvertently or from a foreign intelligence service, Silkenat wrote that the NSA should respect attorney-client privilege and take all appropriate steps to ensure that any such information is not further disseminated to other agencies or third parties.
Techdirt article
Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2014-02-28 20:04:09
That rates a wow and a bump Kara.
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By Jetackuu 2014-02-28 21:19:52
You know out of all the partisan crap on this site, I don't see too many people arguing for the NSA.
Both major parties are pretty much all for it, and it's sad.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-02-28 22:11:34
You know out of all the partisan crap on this site, I don't see too many people arguing for the NSA.
Both major parties are pretty much all for it, and it's sad. This is less a function of political affiliation and more a function of this being an internet forum.
I've run into people from all parts of the political spectrum who have taken the (erroneous) view that people who've done nothing wrong have nothing to fear. Ignoring that what we consider to be "wrong" can change, often dramatically and quickly, virtually everyone who makes this inane observation are not serious users of mass communication and mass social media, i.e., the internet.
The few holdouts who imagine that what the NSA and similar "security," intelligence, and espionage agencies around the world have done is acceptable are going to soon evaporate. In barely 20 years we have gone from seeing a URL attached to a political commercial being a novelty (I recall remarking on that exact phenomenon in around 1996) to people having internet-ready refrigerators (if they're rich and foolish, anyhow) and portable computers that we denigrate by calling "phones." A favorite author of mine has written a near-future series of novels that include toilets equipped to provide medical diagnosis and a.) that's probably closer than we realize and b.) the Porcelain Goddess won't be keeping her lid shut on that data.
By fonewear 2014-02-28 23:09:51
I'm not a lawyer but I play one on video game forums. I'm not a privacy expert but I give away all my life on Facebook.
By Fumiku 2014-02-28 23:21:34
You know out of all the partisan crap on this site, I don't see too many people arguing for the NSA.
Both major parties are pretty much all for it, and it's sad.
Well the sad part is the people that are willing to fight for it, cannot gain any traction with the public.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/13/us/politics/rand-paul-files-lawsuit-over-nsa-call-surveillance.html?_r=0
By Jetackuu 2014-02-28 23:34:55
Because him and his father are bad jokes.
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-03-01 01:48:57
This particular lawsuit is really badly worded. It looks like a publicity stunt. I'm pretty sure it's going to get thrown out of court at the first opportunity.
I posted about it before
Rand Paul Files Class Action Lawsuit Against The NSA
Quote: “This case is, first of all, the only case that is strictly challenging the Fourth Amendment elements of the telephone metadata gathering,” Cuccinelli said. “Second of all, this will be certified later in the case as a class action, on behalf of all Americans. The other cases thus far are on behalf of individual plaintiffs … that does not provide relief for every American using telephones. This case will.”
Full official complaint at the bottom of the article.
1. The Supreme Court has been slowly decreasing the power of class action suits.
Wal-mart vs. Dukes (ruled the plaintiffs did not have enough in common to be considered a class).
Comcast Corp. v. Behrend(ruled the plaintiffs did not suffer damages on a class wide basis).
2. By bringing a class action suit on behalf of all Americans he will have to prove not only standing but that harm has been done against "Rand Paul, on behalf of himself and all others similarly situated" (actual wording of the complaint).
I'm interested to see if this class action will be thrown out as quickly as previous Wal-Mart class action suits have been, based on the above Supreme Court rulings.
While I think it is good that more people are trying to hold the NSA and other government officials responsible this seems more like a publicity stunt than a lawsuit with clear intent.
Quote: He initially directed potential class-action signatories to websites including RandPAC.com and to his Facebook page, which sent visitors to RandPaul2016.com. Signing up on both sites also added visitors to his campaign’s email lists.
However, EFF, ACLU, and Amnesty International have been fighting back with many lawsuits before the Snowden release (where the Supreme Court ruled there was lack of evidence that the US was spying) and afterwards.
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-03-01 01:51:41
That rates a wow and a bump Kara. What kind of annoys me is that I can't find any (to pull a phrase used often here) "mainstream news organizations" covering this story.
Most of the blogs I found redirect to the techdirt article.
By Fumiku 2014-03-01 04:08:58
That rates a wow and a bump Kara. What kind of annoys me is that I can't find any (to pull a phrase used often here) "mainstream news organizations" covering this story.
Most of the blogs I found redirect to the techdirt article.
Yeah, it is a publicity stunt, won't argue that.
Fox covers the NSA alot, Bengazi, the irs scandel and other serious issues that alot of people shrug off as nothing even though they are very serious issues.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/3216246267001/nsa-reportedly-helped-spy-on-us-law-firm-in-trade-dispute/#sp=show-clips
Touches on Attorney client privilege.
Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-03-01 09:05:01
That rates a wow and a bump Kara. What kind of annoys me is that I can't find any (to pull a phrase used often here) "mainstream news organizations" covering this story.
Most of the blogs I found redirect to the techdirt article.
Yeah, it is a publicity stunt, won't argue that.
Fox covers the NSA alot, Bengazi, the irs scandel and other serious issues that alot of people shrug off as nothing even though they are very serious issues.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/3216246267001/nsa-reportedly-helped-spy-on-us-law-firm-in-trade-dispute/#sp=show-clips
Touches on Attorney client privilege.
I think you are talking at cross purposes; Kara is stating that the suit filed by Rand Paul is badly worded and a publicity stunt.
She is also pointing out that the ABA request for the NSA to explain how it is permitted to violate attorney-client privilege is not covered in news. Not that the entire attorney-client privilege violations aren't covered; they have been by all media organizations.
Fox doesn't cover any actual news that pretty much any other station doesn't also cover. However, they do cover a lot of "news" which is often thinly veiled propaganda, or purposefully portrayed to denote a particular viewpoint.
I personally prefer to be presented the information (as factually as possible), and do my own thinking. However, that doesn't appear to be profitable enough anymore.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-03-01 09:07:02
Wow, Fumiku posts a link from Fox News that most liberals would find engaging and even goes along with their agenda, and they STILL shoot it down because it's Fox News....
...wait, isn't that some sort of paradox?
By fonewear 2014-03-01 09:12:32
By fonewear 2014-03-01 09:18:52
YouTube Video Placeholder
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-03-01 09:21:34
Lets analyze a liberal's mind:
Quote: <generic liberal>: I believe in this, I want you to follow my ways! If you don't, I will demonize you for the rest of your life for not following in our liberal cult!
<generic everyone else>: I don't agree with most of what you argue for, but on this topic, I agree with you. We need to change to adapt to your idea!
<generic liberal>: You are an idiot for not fully believing in my ideas, even though you agree with me on this one issue! You are dead to my eyes and anyone who listens to you is an idiot for doing so!
Sounds about right. Milamber just proved it too...
Edit: So did Jatackuu
By Jetackuu 2014-03-01 09:29:17
That rates a wow and a bump Kara. What kind of annoys me is that I can't find any (to pull a phrase used often here) "mainstream news organizations" covering this story.
Most of the blogs I found redirect to the techdirt article.
Yeah, it is a publicity stunt, won't argue that.
Fox covers the NSA alot, Bengazi, the irs scandel and other serious issues that alot of people shrug off as nothing even though they are very serious issues.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/3216246267001/nsa-reportedly-helped-spy-on-us-law-firm-in-trade-dispute/#sp=show-clips
Touches on Attorney client privilege.
because Benghazi and the IRS thing aren't scandals, Fox just pretends they are.
Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-03-01 09:29:53
Wow, Fumiku posts a link from Fox News that most liberals would find engaging and even goes along with their agenda, and they STILL shoot it down because it's Fox News....
...wait, isn't that some sort of paradox?
The video he posted has a republican representative espousing the talking point that nothing wrong was done. The posters you label as liberals are commenting on how there is a potential problem regarding the violation of lawyer-client confidentiality as a whole not just an isolated incident.
It's not a secret that the entity known as the Fox News Network does very little news reporting. The majority of their content is Opinion Editorials. Even the video that was posted was an Op Ed with a slant to reassure the Fox News viewers that no wrong doing was done by both US and Australian government agencies. Was even reinforced by having King repeat over and over that the New York Times and Edward Snowden both said there was no wrong doing in this instance.
Being that Fox News is owned by an Australian media mogul who has made a mint pandering to American jingoists post 9/11; really isn't that surprising this piece was produced since the parties involved were an Australian intelligence agency, and the NSA.
One a side note Fox News is considered satire in most parts of the world.
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By Jetackuu 2014-03-01 09:30:45
Lets analyze a liberal's mind:
Quote: <generic liberal>: I believe in this, I want you to follow my ways! If you don't, I will demonize you for the rest of your life for not following in our liberal cult!
<generic everyone else>: I don't agree with most of what you argue for, but on this topic, I agree with you. We need to change to adapt to your idea!
<generic liberal>: You are an idiot for not fully believing in my ideas, even though you agree with me on this one issue! You are dead to my eyes and anyone who listens to you is an idiot for doing so!
Sounds about right. Milamber just proved it too... No she didn't, and you're starting a fight for no reason, stop posting if you aren't going to partake in the discussion.
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Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2014-03-01 09:50:57
Jet, I think Rand Paul is a rather good joke.
Also, King doesn't participate, he derails.
As far as topic goes, does the mass collection of metadata itself breach attorney client privilege? As in just knowing that there was a conversation at a certain time without knowing the content?
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By Jetackuu 2014-03-01 09:57:25
Jet, I think Rand Paul is a rather good joke.
Also, King doesn't participate, he derails.
As far as topic goes, does the mass collection of metadata itself breach attorney client privilege? As in just knowing that there was a conversation at a certain time without knowing the content?
I find him to be about like this joke:
"Why did the dead baby cross the road?" "Because it was stapled to the chicken"
funny but just sad.
Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-03-01 10:10:17
As far as topic goes, does the mass collection of metadata itself breach attorney client privilege? As in just knowing that there was a conversation at a certain time without knowing the content?
If they're just collecting data in mass and storing it for later review, it's somewhat benign but annoying. Especially in light of the fact that databases can be breached. Really, is it no different then knowing as a plaintiff that the defendant is meeting with their attorney at 12pm today?
Though if they're collecting data and reviewing it for the purpose manipulating outcomes of events and legal hearings in the favor of the US government obviously that's an issue, but not surprising since that would be in line with the NSA's Modus Operandi.
However, I do think that if the NSA were to breach lawyer-client confidentiality, in order to sway a decision, that the lawyer could argue it is inadmissible evidence.
By fonewear 2014-03-01 10:17:35
I think they prefer to be called "ambulance chasers".
I don't trust lawyers or the NSA. So there are no winners if you ask me.
Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-03-01 10:37:04
Lets analyze a liberal's mind:
Quote: <generic liberal>: I believe in this, I want you to follow my ways! If you don't, I will demonize you for the rest of your life for not following in our liberal cult!
<generic everyone else>: I don't agree with most of what you argue for, but on this topic, I agree with you. We need to change to adapt to your idea!
<generic liberal>: You are an idiot for not fully believing in my ideas, even though you agree with me on this one issue! You are dead to my eyes and anyone who listens to you is an idiot for doing so!
Sounds about right. Milamber just proved it too...
Edit: So did Jatackuu
Really, Mr. "Slavery, just run"?
What part of pointing out that two people were actually talking about separate items do you seem to not recognize as constructive?
It isn't a matter of "oh, he believes the same thing I do". It's a simple matter of making sure you properly understand the discussion.If we can't be clear on what we discuss, then there is absolutely no way of continuing.
[+]
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-03-01 11:04:28
Lets analyze a liberal's mind:
Quote: <generic liberal>: I believe in this, I want you to follow my ways! If you don't, I will demonize you for the rest of your life for not following in our liberal cult!
<generic everyone else>: I don't agree with most of what you argue for, but on this topic, I agree with you. We need to change to adapt to your idea!
<generic liberal>: You are an idiot for not fully believing in my ideas, even though you agree with me on this one issue! You are dead to my eyes and anyone who listens to you is an idiot for doing so!
Sounds about right. Milamber just proved it too...
Edit: So did Jatackuu
Really, Mr. "Slavery, just run"?
What part of pointing out that two people were actually talking about separate items do you seem to not recognize as constructive?
It isn't a matter of "oh, he believes the same thing I do". It's a simple matter of making sure you properly understand the discussion.If we can't be clear on what we discuss, then there is absolutely no way of continuing. Hate the fact that I reported your thoughts so accurately?
Besides, there was nothing constructive with your post either. Are you going to report yourself now?
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By fonewear 2014-03-01 11:05:26
Wait a minute something productive happened in the P and R thread. I'll mark in down in my journal.
Dear Journal: I learned something today lawyers are wonderful people that never breach their ethical practices. And the NSA only wants to spy on your personal conversations for the greater good.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-03-01 11:07:19
No such thing as constructive or productive in P&R section.
Just bickering and childish behavior, and us trying to control it.
By fonewear 2014-03-01 11:08:24
I'm not a political scientist but childish bickering is part of the political process. Along with name calling whining and diverting answering questions.
Cerberus.Logical
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By Cerberus.Logical 2014-03-01 12:29:05
What could've been an engaging conversation about the aforementioned bedrock legal principle of privileged information and communications has degenerated into political shitslappery. For shame, AH.
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Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-03-01 12:36:30
Just the work of the typical shitposters. They have nothing to say but posting here makes them feel like they do.
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American Bar Association asks NSA to explain how intelligence agency deals with attorney-client privilege
-pdf of full letter from ABA
Quote: The interception and sharing of attorney-client privileged communications by government agencies—or any third party—raises concerns, including chilling the full and frank discussion between lawyer and client that is essential for effective legal representation. Any government surveillance and interception of confidential communications between law firms and their clients threaten to seriously undermine and weaken the privilege, because as the U.S. Supreme Court noted in Upjohn Co. v. United States, 449 U.S. 383 (1981), “an uncertain privilege…is little better than no privilege at all.”
Press Release
Quote: WASHINGTON, Feb. 21, 2014 — The American Bar Association sent a letter to the National Security Agency on Feb. 20 expressing concerns over recent allegations of possible foreign government surveillance of American lawyers’ confidential communications with their overseas clients and the subsequent sharing of the privileged information with the NSA. The ABA also requested clarification on the agency’s current policies and practices designed to protect the attorney-client privileged information that it intercepts or receives and whether those directives were followed in connection with the alleged incident.
An article in The New York Times alleges that the Australian Signals Directorate intercepted privileged communications between the government of Indonesia and an American law firm and then shared the information with the NSA. Citing that allegation, ABA President James R. Silkenat expressed concern that if confidential information was intercepted and shared with the NSA, it could be improperly utilized by the U.S. government or third parties.
“The attorney-client privilege is a bedrock legal principle of our free society and is important in both the civil and criminal contexts,” Silkenat wrote. “It enables both individual and organizational clients to communicate with their lawyers in confidence, which is essential to preserving all clients’ fundamental rights to effective counsel.”
The ABA further urged the NSA not to actively seek confidential communications between U.S. law firms and their clients. If confidential information is obtained by the NSA inadvertently or from a foreign intelligence service, Silkenat wrote that the NSA should respect attorney-client privilege and take all appropriate steps to ensure that any such information is not further disseminated to other agencies or third parties.
Techdirt article
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