Perfecting Nin

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2010-09-08
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Perfecting Nin
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 Fenrir.Curty
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By Fenrir.Curty 2011-06-27 10:11:01
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So I just finished 90 kannagi yesterday (hurray!!), but now I am trying to decide what else I really need to work on before I can finally say my nin is done. So any advice on the following gear sets would be great. We'll assume all inside abyssea for now.

TP:

WS:

EVA:

And a set I'm a big proponent of.. the Eva/Haste combo set:

Anwig: AGI+4 DEX+4 Crit hit Dmg+4% WS DMG+4%
B. Haidate: Currently crit hit dmg+4% store tp+3 resist slow+4 (trying to exchange the resist slow for some AGI but taking awhile)
Sieryu Kote: Currently crit hit rate+2, store tp+1 (Shooting for better of these stats)
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2011-06-27 10:13:16
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If parry isn't close to cap, fugacity mantle may be better. Also, why no Ungur on full evasion?
 Fenrir.Curty
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By Fenrir.Curty 2011-06-27 10:19:10
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Was just assuming you would keep tathlum full time to keep tp but can swap ungurs and sekka+2 of course for higher eva if holding or something.

good call on fugacity back, never seen it, but my parrying is high enough that I think I will just continue with Boxer's.
 Ragnarok.Hevans
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By Ragnarok.Hevans 2011-06-27 10:20:00
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Fenrir.Curty said:
Was just assuming you would keep tathlum full time to keep tp but can swap ungurs and sekka+2 of course for higher eva if holding or something.

good call on fugacity back, never seen it, but my parrying is high enough that I think I will just continue with Boxer's.


good fricken luck. i can't find one to save my life =/.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2011-06-27 10:20:59
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I just assumed full evasion you want to avoid as much, and for the haste/evasion, you'd have some kind of support, which would make tathlum seem more plausible there. Just thought you mixed the two up is all.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2011-06-27 10:21:38
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Ragnarok.Hevans said:
Fenrir.Curty said:
Was just assuming you would keep tathlum full time to keep tp but can swap ungurs and sekka+2 of course for higher eva if holding or something.

good call on fugacity back, never seen it, but my parrying is high enough that I think I will just continue with Boxer's.


good fricken luck. i can't find one to save my life =/.
One on AH on Bismark at the moment.
 Ragnarok.Hevans
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By Ragnarok.Hevans 2011-06-27 10:23:03
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/raaaaaaaaaage
 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-06-27 10:24:54
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If you need any direction in "Perfecting NIN" you should visit Upbeat's (ODIN) profile and items sets. Virtually every possibility covered there, from Haste to a *** convert set for NIN/RDM.
[+]
 Sylph.Krsone
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By Sylph.Krsone 2011-06-27 10:24:56
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Usu body and hands got more eva btw.
 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-06-27 10:26:53
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Sylph.Krsone said:
Usu body and hands got more eva btw.


Not if you're counting AGI too...
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2011-06-27 10:27:17
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Usu hands don't, you forgot the AGI from the gloves.
 Asura.Vyre
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By Asura.Vyre 2011-06-27 10:28:33
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Odin.Zicdeh said:
If you need any direction in "Perfecting NIN" you should visit Upbeat's (ODIN) profile and items sets. Virtually every possibility covered there, from Haste to a *** convert set for NIN/RDM.
This, though if you don't wanna go that far, at least setup a nuking/enfeebling setup. Never forget about Ninjutsu.
 Sylph.Krsone
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By Sylph.Krsone 2011-06-27 10:31:17
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Odin.Zicdeh said:
Sylph.Krsone said:
Usu body and hands got more eva btw.


Not if you're counting AGI too...

I wasnt, wasnt even sure if these two were any better just mentioning them incase they were just missed.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2011-06-27 10:34:46
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Sylph.Krsone said:
Odin.Zicdeh said:
Sylph.Krsone said:
Usu body and hands got more eva btw.


Not if you're counting AGI too...

I wasnt, wasnt even sure if these two were any better just mentioning them incase they were just missed.
Personally I'd rather use Usu for the counter, chances are you'll have near max evasion vs the mob anyways. Although the harness he does have might beat usukane for the sheer fact of increased crit damage, at least in my opinion.
 Leviathan.Haberym
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By Leviathan.Haberym 2011-06-27 10:35:20
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Blade: Hi-


Mixed Eva-
 Fenrir.Arianna
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By Fenrir.Arianna 2011-06-27 10:52:08
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For TPing, I prefer AF3+2 legs + Usukane feet over BHaidate + AF3+2 feet. It maintains capped haste, and the STP on Usu feet shave one hit off what you need for 100% TP (11 vs 12).

EDIT: The hit # includes the 3 STP on your BHaidate. Even with the crit damage+%, AF3+2 legs + Usu feet slightly beat BHaidate + AF3+2 feet, though the difference is minimal.
 Fenrir.Curty
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By Fenrir.Curty 2011-06-27 11:05:44
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I just don't see how crit hit dmg+4% could possibly be beat by the store tp on usukane.

My reasoning is that store tp is a lot more ineffective on a job like nin vs 2 handers. Triple Attack, Double Attack, dual wield all work against store tp in that they can make it so that youre 12th hit is arriving simultaneously as your 11th. I'm sure figuring the math on this would be quite easy, but I have to go for now, but i'd estimate it at least 75% that this happens in abyssea. So yes the store tp may be useful 25% of the time but that won't out due crit hit dmg+4% imo.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2011-06-27 11:07:16
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Fenrir.Arianna said:
For TPing, I prefer AF3+2 legs + Usukane feet over BHaidate + AF3+2 feet. It maintains capped haste, and the STP on Usu feet shave one hit off what you need for 100% TP (11 vs 12).

EDIT: The hit # includes the 3 STP on your BHaidate. Even with the crit damage+%, AF3+2 legs + Usu feet slightly beat BHaidate + AF3+2 feet, though the difference is minimal.
Do you have any math?
 Phoenix.Kirana
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By Phoenix.Kirana 2011-06-27 11:21:54
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Fenrir.Curty said:
I just don't see how crit hit dmg+4% could possibly be beat by the store tp on usukane.

My reasoning is that store tp is a lot more ineffective on a job like nin vs 2 handers. Triple Attack, Double Attack, dual wield all work against store tp in that they can make it so that youre 12th hit is arriving simultaneously as your 11th. I'm sure figuring the math on this would be quite easy, but I have to go for now, but i'd estimate it at least 75% that this happens in abyssea. So yes the store tp may be useful 25% of the time but that won't out due crit hit dmg+4% imo.

Phoenix.Kirana said:
Store TP does just as much as it does on any other job. It just takes more Store TP to make a difference on 2-handers than it does on dual-wield/H2H.

edit: example: A 2-hand job might need +25 store tp to go from a 6-hit to a 5-hit, whereas a dual-wield job getting that same +25 Store tp would take you from a 20-hit to a 16-hit.

The difference is that a small amount of Store tp (like +5 from rajas) will make no difference on a 2-hand job if it does not break a hit build. However, on a dual-wield job that +5 would take you from a 20-hit to a 19-hit.

If anything Store TP is more usable on dual-wielders because almost any amount of it will help you reach 100% tp faster.
^my rant on Store TP from another thread.
edit: and more!
Phoenix.Kirana said:
Assuming both jobs are fully utilizing a certain amount of Store TP, they both get the same % increase.

I'm not arguing that rajas will beat the 2% triple attack, in fact I think the 2% triple attack is better, especially inside abyssea.

Also, the 2% triple attack would be a smaller increase assuming apoc is on, compared to off. Diminishing returns.

The argument of going over 100% goes both ways. On a dual-wielder, you are much more likely to go over, but only by a small amount (5-10%). On a 2-hander you are less likely to go over (due to a double or triple attack), but it will always be by a large amount (16-40%).
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-06-27 11:46:45
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Fenrir.Curty said:
I just don't see how crit hit dmg+4% could possibly be beat by the store tp on usukane.
Because critdmg, like most everything else, is subject to decreasing returns. You're already at 45% during TP phase. Further, you're not just sacrificing Store TP. You're also sacrificing ~10 attack.

Quote:
My reasoning is that store tp is a lot more ineffective on a job like nin vs 2 handers. Triple Attack, Double Attack, dual wield all work against store tp in that they can make it so that youre 12th hit is arriving simultaneously as your 11th.
It's really not. 2handers are also subject to TA/DA causing TP overflow, and while DW does cause overflow on the offhand it may get you to 100 TP at the end of a round as well. If anything Store TP is better for non-2handers because every bit added will have a positive effect on your average rounds to WS.

Ramuh.Austar said:
Fenrir.Arianna said:
For TPing, I prefer AF3+2 legs + Usukane feet over BHaidate + AF3+2 feet. It maintains capped haste, and the STP on Usu feet shave one hit off what you need for 100% TP (11 vs 12).

EDIT: The hit # includes the 3 STP on your BHaidate. Even with the crit damage+%, AF3+2 legs + Usu feet slightly beat BHaidate + AF3+2 feet, though the difference is minimal.
Do you have any math?
I can confirm her statement. Only time Haidate/Iga is better than Iga/Usukane is in situations outside Abyssea where the 20 DEX gained has a significant impact on critrate, and you need a high STP augment to really give it an edge. They're comparable in high critrate situations outside Abyssea, with Iga/Usu pulling ahead in low critrate situations.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2011-06-27 11:52:07
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Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Fenrir.Curty said:
I just don't see how crit hit dmg+4% could possibly be beat by the store tp on usukane.
Because critdmg, like most everything else, is subject to decreasing returns. You're already at 45% during TP phase. Further, you're not just sacrificing Store TP. You're also sacrificing ~10 attack.

Quote:
My reasoning is that store tp is a lot more ineffective on a job like nin vs 2 handers. Triple Attack, Double Attack, dual wield all work against store tp in that they can make it so that youre 12th hit is arriving simultaneously as your 11th.
It's really not. 2handers are also subject to TA/DA causing TP overflow, and while DW does cause overflow on the offhand it may get you to 100 TP at the end of a round as well. If anything Store TP is better for non-2handers because every bit added will have a positive effect on your average rounds to WS.

Ramuh.Austar said:
Fenrir.Arianna said:
For TPing, I prefer AF3+2 legs + Usukane feet over BHaidate + AF3+2 feet. It maintains capped haste, and the STP on Usu feet shave one hit off what you need for 100% TP (11 vs 12).

EDIT: The hit # includes the 3 STP on your BHaidate. Even with the crit damage+%, AF3+2 legs + Usu feet slightly beat BHaidate + AF3+2 feet, though the difference is minimal.
Do you have any math?
I can confirm her statement. Only time Haidate/Iga is better than Iga/Usukane is in situations outside Abyssea where the 20 DEX gained has a significant impact on critrate, and you need a high STP augment to really give it an edge. They're comparable in high critrate situations outside Abyssea, with Iga/Usu pulling ahead in low critrate situations.
Glad to know I'm not missing much by not augmenting mine then.
 Quetzalcoatl.Kyler
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By Quetzalcoatl.Kyler 2011-06-27 23:14:18
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Except for potentially the best Hi/Jin legs inside and outside abyssea?
 Bahamut.Clack
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By Bahamut.Clack 2011-06-29 02:27:57
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I disagree with a few of your choices, they're not huge though.
You're at 41 subtle blow in your evasion set (assuming merits), and most likely cap dodge rate on most things. You can cap subtle blow with traits (+25), merits (+5), rajas ring (+5), heed ring (+7), torero torque (+9). This would be +51 subtle blow, enough to cap at both 50% and w/e fractional cap above 50 but below 51 that there may or may not be. Heed ring can be ignored in favor of alcide +1, or alcide +1 can be swapped for usukane, though I believe alcide +1 and a free ring slot would be better than usukane paired with heed ring.

Also, I don't know if you're a spellcast user or not, but if so, there are definitely times when shadow belt should be swapped with anguinus for Blade: Hi. Potentially when berserk is down, or on particularly defensive NMs.
Also various obvious stuff like swapping chainmail for ningi during marches, etc.
Very solid overall, just adding some more uh, nebulous stuff I guess.

Edit: Yeah, usukane and hakama +2. *** bees though, for real.
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-06-29 02:36:41
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Orrrrrr he could use Myoshu.
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 Bahamut.Clack
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By Bahamut.Clack 2011-06-29 05:19:09
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Myoshu is cool and all, but I think not having to bother casting it and have better stats as a result is cooler. By making the switch, net change would be +5STR/DEX/STP, +12 subtle blow, +6acc, +3INT, -7 AGI, -6.5 or 7 evasion, depending on AGI amount.
Outside abyssea the -7AGI might result in slightly less net subtle blow, but within abyssea you'll more than likely be capped.
 Fenrir.Bricent
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By Fenrir.Bricent 2011-07-03 07:38:29
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Has anyone parsed the difference in dmg from Tobi +2 over lvl 90 Kannagi? I would assume the numbers to be very different making Kannagi far superior to the tobi +2? Just curious?
 Fenrir.Fearforever
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By Fenrir.Fearforever 2011-07-03 07:42:12
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Fenrir.Bricent said:
Has anyone parsed the difference in dmg from Tobi +2 over lvl 90 Kannagi? I would assume the numbers to be very different making Kannagi far superior to the tobi +2? Just curious?

Higher base dmg and +10-15 AGI, it will be alot higher
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 Ragnarok.Nemesio
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By Ragnarok.Nemesio 2011-07-03 08:48:41
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Seeing as I don't have usu boots, is it safe to assume that b.haidate with crit damage and af+2 boots is the best I have at my disposal? I am obviously working on usu boots, but it's turning out to be a fairly hard challenge.
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By Phoenix.Tearxx 2011-07-03 10:26:37
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lv 90 Kannagi also rapes in DoT cause of aftermath. Thats what really sets the true emp from WoE
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